3 when/if Dario returns.Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:09 pmSo we would have only 2 people in our rotation that are over 6-8. That seems lacking again.Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:32 amOur bench unit will better for the playoffs. I fully trust Cam Johnson’s growth (earmark for bigger role scoring the ball) + Javale Mcgee’s high motor, rim running/protecting, athleticism.In2ition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:05 amHe was starting as a negative, so if he has a major improvement, it wouldn't take that much. He was decent in the summer league and first preseason, but we need him to be good at PF, and that will be much harder.
Weep not friendos-
Dario’s playoff high was 11pts, he wasn’t the same player prior to covid.
Craig was a good role player off the bench last year but not lengthy enough to defend the 5.
What matters here is the playoff rotation- Cam Payne, Shamet, Cam Johnson, and Javale Mcgee.
The 2021 Suns Offseason
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Ayton can still be getting better, while not out-pacing Paul's decline over the next 2 seasons. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, though.JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pmIf we don't expect Ayton to be at least our 2nd best player within the next couple years then we should trade him right now.Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pmPaying your 3rd or 4th best player $35-40M/year will never look cheap.JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 amhttps://sports.yahoo.com/report-suns-st ... 06266.html
That is a huge point also. People acting like a max deal for Ayton + a fair deal for Bridges will destroy our future are not taking into account that these deals will look a lot cheaper after the salary cap jump.It’s not just the Deandre Ayton contract extension that the Phoenix Suns are messing up not getting done in the wake of reaching the NBA Finals.
[...]
With the salary cap expected to go up in a couple of years, even going a little over market value will not hurt in the long run.
In order for him not to be, it would take at least 2 of the following happening:
1. Zero improvement from Ayton.
2. Huge jump from Bridges or historic jump from another player.
3. Chris Paul being the best 38-year old to ever play.
And it wouldn't take too much for Bridges and Ayton to be equally good players for us. I don't see that as a huge step for Mikal.
- Drewsprocket
- Posts: 1911
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:44 pm
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Lacking where and when? I am not sure I agree it’s a need. We missed height when it came down to when Ayton was on the bench. Javale fits that need. One of our key strengths was our 3 and D and .5 passing between Bridges, Cam Johnson, Crowder, Ayton. Given that in the playoffs you’re only running 8-9 players what are you thinking in terms of roster moves?Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:09 pmSo we would have only 2 people in our rotation that are over 6-8. That seems lacking again.Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:32 amOur bench unit will better for the playoffs. I fully trust Cam Johnson’s growth (earmark for bigger role scoring the ball) + Javale Mcgee’s high motor, rim running/protecting, athleticism.In2ition wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:05 amHe was starting as a negative, so if he has a major improvement, it wouldn't take that much. He was decent in the summer league and first preseason, but we need him to be good at PF, and that will be much harder.
Weep not friendos-
Dario’s playoff high was 11pts, he wasn’t the same player prior to covid.
Craig was a good role player off the bench last year but not lengthy enough to defend the 5.
What matters here is the playoff rotation- Cam Payne, Shamet, Cam Johnson, and Javale Mcgee.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
I am happy with the McGee signing. I just think when playoff time comes around, you should have more than 2 guys on your roster over 6-8 that you can trust (even if it is for 3-4 minutes to close a quarter/half).
Online
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
I know people will laugh at me, but I do trust Kaminsky for a few minutes per half in the right lineups. I also would not be opposed to trusting Stix in those minutes if he continues to show improvement this season. We have guys, we just have to develop them and put them in positions to succeed.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Finals Game 6 showed up Monty's huge error in not playing Kaminsky more ... even Monty admitted it.Mori Chu wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:45 pmI know people will laugh at me, but I do trust Kaminsky for a few minutes per half in the right lineups. I also would not be opposed to trusting Stix in those minutes if he continues to show improvement this season. We have guys, we just have to develop them and put them in positions to succeed.
The lack of height - alone - absolutely killed us in that series, and Frank would have been better than nothing (saying this in hindsight..).
And Saric will be back, so Ayton, McGee, Saric and Kaminsky ... I'm good with that.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
If he makes a leap I’m not as concerned about paying him. We still also don’t have to give him the full max even if he makes All-NBA.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
I never understood that quote from Monty. Yes, Kaminsky was good in game 6, but he did get earlier opportunities and we got slaughtered in his minutes.3rdside wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:57 pmFinals Game 6 showed up Monty's huge error in not playing Kaminsky more ... even Monty admitted it.Mori Chu wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:45 pmI know people will laugh at me, but I do trust Kaminsky for a few minutes per half in the right lineups. I also would not be opposed to trusting Stix in those minutes if he continues to show improvement this season. We have guys, we just have to develop them and put them in positions to succeed.
The lack of height - alone - absolutely killed us in that series, and Frank would have been better than nothing (saying this in hindsight..).
And Saric will be back, so Ayton, McGee, Saric and Kaminsky ... I'm good with that.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
If I'm structuring a contract for Ayton, I'm making it sans-Paul dependent.Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:29 pmAyton can still be getting better, while not out-pacing Paul's decline over the next 2 seasons. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, though.JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pmIf we don't expect Ayton to be at least our 2nd best player within the next couple years then we should trade him right now.Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pmPaying your 3rd or 4th best player $35-40M/year will never look cheap.JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 amhttps://sports.yahoo.com/report-suns-st ... 06266.html
That is a huge point also. People acting like a max deal for Ayton + a fair deal for Bridges will destroy our future are not taking into account that these deals will look a lot cheaper after the salary cap jump.It’s not just the Deandre Ayton contract extension that the Phoenix Suns are messing up not getting done in the wake of reaching the NBA Finals.
[...]
With the salary cap expected to go up in a couple of years, even going a little over market value will not hurt in the long run.
In order for him not to be, it would take at least 2 of the following happening:
1. Zero improvement from Ayton.
2. Huge jump from Bridges or historic jump from another player.
3. Chris Paul being the best 38-year old to ever play.
And it wouldn't take too much for Bridges and Ayton to be equally good players for us. I don't see that as a huge step for Mikal.
Paul is like Nash, making everyone around him better - and when Paul retires, and if Ayton's statistics tank, then you pay him less.
I don't think that's a difficult argument to present to Ayton, as it's a simple to see (I hope) fact.
Marion after leaving the Suns
Jordan after Paul left the clippers
Even Wiggins after Rubio left (another pass first PG).
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
His minutes for the 6 finals games:Shabazz wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:16 pmI never understood that quote from Monty. Yes, Kaminsky was good in game 6, but he did get earlier opportunities and we got slaughtered in his minutes.3rdside wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:57 pmFinals Game 6 showed up Monty's huge error in not playing Kaminsky more ... even Monty admitted it.Mori Chu wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:45 pmI know people will laugh at me, but I do trust Kaminsky for a few minutes per half in the right lineups. I also would not be opposed to trusting Stix in those minutes if he continues to show improvement this season. We have guys, we just have to develop them and put them in positions to succeed.
The lack of height - alone - absolutely killed us in that series, and Frank would have been better than nothing (saying this in hindsight..).
And Saric will be back, so Ayton, McGee, Saric and Kaminsky ... I'm good with that.
4, 1, 14, DNP, DNP, 11.
He was a -12 in game 3, not great but not the worst on the team (Cam Payne was -18, Paul and Booker were both -13, Torrey Craig was a -12, Crowder a -11), and he shot 3/5 with 4 rebounds .. but the inference here is that it looks like Monty pinned some of that loss on Frank judging by his two DNP's that followed.
But as the series wore on it became clearer and clearer that a lack of height that was killing us.
Now I didn't think about using Frank either because he did look awful at times, but there was enough from game 6 to suggest he should have played more.
Again, Monty said it and my feel is Monty was correct.
- AmareIsGod
- Posts: 5529
- Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:24 pm
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Wouldn't that be great! In that world, I'd make sure all contracts had a sans-Productivity expectation requirement. If they don't meet it, they don't get paid what we negotiated.3rdside wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:16 pmIf I'm structuring a contract for Ayton, I'm making it sans-Paul dependent.Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:29 pmAyton can still be getting better, while not out-pacing Paul's decline over the next 2 seasons. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, though.JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pmIf we don't expect Ayton to be at least our 2nd best player within the next couple years then we should trade him right now.Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pmPaying your 3rd or 4th best player $35-40M/year will never look cheap.JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 amhttps://sports.yahoo.com/report-suns-st ... 06266.html
That is a huge point also. People acting like a max deal for Ayton + a fair deal for Bridges will destroy our future are not taking into account that these deals will look a lot cheaper after the salary cap jump.
In order for him not to be, it would take at least 2 of the following happening:
1. Zero improvement from Ayton.
2. Huge jump from Bridges or historic jump from another player.
3. Chris Paul being the best 38-year old to ever play.
And it wouldn't take too much for Bridges and Ayton to be equally good players for us. I don't see that as a huge step for Mikal.
Paul is like Nash, making everyone around him better - and when Paul retires, and if Ayton's statistics tank, then you pay him less.
I don't think that's a difficult argument to present to Ayton, as it's a simple to see (I hope) fact.
Marion after leaving the Suns
Jordan after Paul left the clippers
Even Wiggins after Rubio left (another pass first PG).
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. I'd be dominAyton if the WNBA would let me in. - Ayton
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Yeah I think you're right, you can't build in performance incentives as it will just offside the player.AmareIsGod wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:37 pmWouldn't that be great! In that world, I'd make sure all contracts had a sans-Productivity expectation requirement. If they don't meet it, they don't get paid what we negotiated.3rdside wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:16 pmIf I'm structuring a contract for Ayton, I'm making it sans-Paul dependent.Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:29 pmAyton can still be getting better, while not out-pacing Paul's decline over the next 2 seasons. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, though.JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pmIf we don't expect Ayton to be at least our 2nd best player within the next couple years then we should trade him right now.
In order for him not to be, it would take at least 2 of the following happening:
1. Zero improvement from Ayton.
2. Huge jump from Bridges or historic jump from another player.
3. Chris Paul being the best 38-year old to ever play.
And it wouldn't take too much for Bridges and Ayton to be equally good players for us. I don't see that as a huge step for Mikal.
Paul is like Nash, making everyone around him better - and when Paul retires, and if Ayton's statistics tank, then you pay him less.
I don't think that's a difficult argument to present to Ayton, as it's a simple to see (I hope) fact.
Marion after leaving the Suns
Jordan after Paul left the clippers
Even Wiggins after Rubio left (another pass first PG).
Instead, I'd be clear about using it as leverage in trade talks.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
*Clearly but softly, lol
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
You mean how Ayton's scoring went down from 18.2 ppg in 2019-20 to 14.4 ppg last season with Chris Paul?3rdside wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:16 pmIf I'm structuring a contract for Ayton, I'm making it sans-Paul dependent.Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:29 pmAyton can still be getting better, while not out-pacing Paul's decline over the next 2 seasons. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, though.JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pmIf we don't expect Ayton to be at least our 2nd best player within the next couple years then we should trade him right now.Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pmPaying your 3rd or 4th best player $35-40M/year will never look cheap.JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 amhttps://sports.yahoo.com/report-suns-st ... 06266.html
That is a huge point also. People acting like a max deal for Ayton + a fair deal for Bridges will destroy our future are not taking into account that these deals will look a lot cheaper after the salary cap jump.
In order for him not to be, it would take at least 2 of the following happening:
1. Zero improvement from Ayton.
2. Huge jump from Bridges or historic jump from another player.
3. Chris Paul being the best 38-year old to ever play.
And it wouldn't take too much for Bridges and Ayton to be equally good players for us. I don't see that as a huge step for Mikal.
Paul is like Nash, making everyone around him better - and when Paul retires, and if Ayton's statistics tank, then you pay him less.
I don't think that's a difficult argument to present to Ayton, as it's a simple to see (I hope) fact.
Marion after leaving the Suns
Jordan after Paul left the clippers
Even Wiggins after Rubio left (another pass first PG).
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
What do you think I mean?
- Drewsprocket
- Posts: 1911
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:44 pm
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
I can see that. Probably why they kept slow footed Frank. Thad Young would definitely bring more of that but I’d hate to reduce minutes between our wings.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
So you're locking into the view that Ayton will produce better statistics without Paul?
Ok.
Ok.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
His scoring could go back up, yes. But what I'm saying is that his play is not dependent on Paul. In fact, he scored more as a rookie when we had no point guard than he did last season with Paul.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.