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Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:05 am
by O_Gardino
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:06 pm
It's not terrible for the league, but it's really bad for those franchises. OKC and Cleveland are probably the least desirable places for most players in the league. Others like Utah, Orlando, Charlotte, (Phoenix) have it a little better, but they're very unlikely to sign a max level star as a free agent. They have to get their stars through the draft or a trade, and trades for stars lately have been at the highest that we've ever seen.
There's nothing the league can or should do to stop players from wanting to play wherever they desire per the CBA rules negotiated by both sides.
Cleveland has been the top team in the East for years after signing free agent Lebron James. OKC has been a force in the west and just last year signed one of the top free agents in Paul George. When was the last time the Knicks got a big name free agent?
We all know that certain cities are more desirable to free agents, but that doesn't affect competitive balance very much.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:28 am
by ShelC
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:44 am
by SDC
carey wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:14 am
It's the Bledsoe/Dragic duo on steroids.
Harden and Westbrook will win less than 48 games next season.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:23 am
by Mori Chu
ShelC wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:05 am
I wouldn't be surprised if Morey were looking at RW as an asset to flip. No way he thinks RW and Harden can work together successfully.
No way, not after giving up all those draft picks for WB. Morey wouldn't do that if he then was going to just turn around and flip Westbrook.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:26 am
by Mori Chu
I think that Harden/Westbrook Rockets team will be a big disappointment. I actually think Paul was a better match for Harden, even accounting for his age and health. Folks are underestimating Paul's passing and ability to get other guys involved. Westbrook doesn't really do that. And Paul was able to adapt and let Harden handle the ball a lot, whereas we have no evidence that Westbrook can do that. Yes, WB played well with George, but I don't think George wanted to run the offense or have the kind of high usage rate that Harden has had the past several seasons. I really think it is going to be a bad mix. 45 wins, fringe playoff team.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:05 am
by Indy
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:26 am
I think that Harden/Westbrook Rockets team will be a big disappointment. I actually think Paul was a better match for Harden, even accounting for his age and health. Folks are underestimating Paul's passing and ability to get other guys involved. Westbrook doesn't really do that. And Paul was able to adapt and let Harden handle the ball a lot, whereas we have no evidence that Westbrook can do that. Yes, WB played well with George, but I don't think George wanted to run the offense or have the kind of high usage rate that Harden has had the past several seasons. I really think it is going to be a bad mix. 45 wins, fringe playoff team.
KD and RW played pretty damn well together. It took the Warriors to beat them in game 7 of the WCF. That last year together they both had a Usage % slight above 30%. I don't see it that different in Houston.
I agree that it won't be easy sailing, but to me that is more about what the Clippers and Warriors did.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:22 am
by ShelC
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:23 am
ShelC wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:05 am
I wouldn't be surprised if Morey were looking at RW as an asset to flip. No way he thinks RW and Harden can work together successfully.
No way, not after giving up all those draft picks for WB. Morey wouldn't do that if he then was going to just turn around and flip Westbrook.
I'll do you one better than...could this be the beginning of the end of Harden in Houston? Could he flip Harden for multiple players/expiring contracts/picks?
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:36 am
by Indy
ShelC wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:22 am
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:23 am
ShelC wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:05 am
I wouldn't be surprised if Morey were looking at RW as an asset to flip. No way he thinks RW and Harden can work together successfully.
No way, not after giving up all those draft picks for WB. Morey wouldn't do that if he then was going to just turn around and flip Westbrook.
I'll do you one better than...could this be the beginning of the end of Harden in Houston? Could he flip Harden for multiple players/expiring contracts/picks?
It isn't easy to build a team if two guys are taking up 59% of your cap. But I am not sure who will give you great players on lesser contracts (have to be rookie deals) for 40M/year of Harden
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:57 am
by ShelC
I'm mostly thinking about the Knicks. If I'm rebuilding around Westbrook (and presumably moving on from MikeD and his system), the Knicks just signed the role players on team-friendly deals who would be pretty good around Westbrook imo. Guys like Marcus Morris, Portis, Taj upfront and then some combo of Frank/Elf/DSJ plus picks.
I just think Morey felt like, at the end of the day, moving RW or Harden would be easier than moving Paul.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 pm
by JeremyG
ShelC wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:44 am
That's true. Maybe he'll look to move Harden. Let's do Harden for Book!
I thought everyone was saying that Booker and Westbrook don’t fit well together either?
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:36 pm
by Split T
They don’t. No one is quite like Harden, but Booker is probably the closest to him.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:08 pm
by JeremyG
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:26 am
Folks are underestimating Paul's passing and ability to get other guys involved. Westbrook doesn't really do that.
Westbrook led the league in assists. Nobody else was even close to him.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:41 pm
by The Bobster
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:08 pm
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:26 am
Folks are underestimating Paul's passing and ability to get other guys involved. Westbrook doesn't really do that.
Westbrook led the league in assists. Nobody else was even close to him.
Top 5 active in career assists per game -
1. Chris Paul
2. John Wall
3. Rajon Rondo
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Ricky Rubio
Westbrook has averaged over 10 assists each of the last four seasons.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:35 pm
by Mori Chu
Westbrook's assist numbers are inflated; he pads his stats in numerous ways. He gets a lot of garbage assists because he holds the ball and has such a high usage rate. If anybody else shoots or scores for OKC, Russ probably passed it to them, but that doesn't mean he is good at setting up his teammates. I also kind of wonder whether the OKC stats people were cooking the books a bit and giving Russ credit for assists that shouldn't have been, similar to the stat keepers in Utah during the Stockton years.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:38 pm
by LazarusLong
The Rockets have inked the cadaver named Tyson Chandler to a one-year contract.
The ESPN article said "A 17-year veteran, Chandler was an effective defender and rebounder last season ..."
Uh, for whom?
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:45 pm
by JeremyG
LazarusLong wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:38 pm
The Rockets have inked the cadaver named Tyson Chandler to a one-year contract.
The ESPN article said "A 17-year veteran, Chandler was an effective defender and rebounder last season ..."
Uh, for whom?
He averaged a career-high 15.8 rebounds per 36 minutes for the Suns last season (12.3 for the Lakers).
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:50 pm
by Split T
He was too immobile to do anything other than just stand by the hoop and grab rebounds.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:54 pm
by LazarusLong
Split T wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:50 pm
He was too immobile to do anything other than just stand by the hoop and grab rebounds.
Exactly. His days as a defender were long gone.
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:56 pm
by Superbone
Re: Around the League: The Off-season
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 pm
by da_suns_fan
Split T wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:44 pm
da_suns_fan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:54 pm
Its really a terrible problem for the league.
Teams like Utah, Toronto, Milwaukee, Denver, Detroit etc are never going to be free agent destinations. They have to draft or either trade for talent and hope their best talent doesnt leave (they always do).
Toronto just won a title, Milwaukee is the favorite in the East, Denver and Utah will probably be fighting for the 1 seed out west.
Yes those teams are never going to be in the market for the Lebron level FA, but they are all very successful franchises with really great teams right now. Hard to see how this is a “terrible” problem for the league.
Because those smaller market teams can do everything "right" and STILL lose their guy. The Raptors just won a CHAMPIONSHIP and they still couldnt keep Kawhi. This is after they lost Chris Bosh in this same decade.
Toronto lost Kawhi. Milwaukee will PROBABLY lose Giannis. Minnesota will PROBABLY lose KAT.
Will Utah be able to keep Gobert? Will Denver be able to keep Jokic? Depends on how big they get and how badly bigger market teams want them. What we know for sure is that smaller market teams have a dismal record of retaining star players.