Phx-Suns.Net

Udoka might've been the guy but had too much baggage. You need someone who will command respect. I don't know who that could be at the moment. I think KD came here to play with CP and under Monty and that dissolved over the summer. I think Vogel is done. I think it would be a mistake to elevate a guy like Fizdale. He might be able to connect better with the players but I don't think he's got the chops to handle a championship level roster. You can talk about Thibs, but Thibs has his vision and philosophy for basketball and the FO is aligned with it. They've given him players that fit his style on and off the court. He's their culture and it's non-negotiable. They have what we had a few years ago - a work team that was prepared to practice and play every minute of every game. We now have a roster top heavy with talent that doesn't really mesh and now have to try and find a coach to work around it. It's not ideal.

I don't know what player moves can be made. I think the coaching needs to be figured out first. I think it needs to be determined whether or not Book can be the vocal leader with guys like KD and Beal in the lockerroom. If not, bringing in an aging vet probably won't help. It's gotta be someone who can play and command respect on the court. Not just culture guys like Ish Wainright or Isaiah Thomas as cheerleaders. Maybe the pieces are there already and the guys just need a coach and system they believe in. Or maybe there's no getting around finesse scorers like Beal and KD and we're locked in with them. Still, I think we should be able to win 55 games on talent alone and the lack of urgency and intensity are symptoms of coaching.

Udoka probably would’ve been good…good call

I said this some weeks ago in another thread. IMO we acquired too many minus defenders in our current roster, too many shooters and scorers who are only so-so or bad on defense. I think it should be almost mandatory that every rotation player is average or above-average on defense, trending toward above-average for most of them.

I know he isn't the most popular player on this forum, but I think Okogie should not have lost his rotation spot. We should be elevating guys like that. I know Okogie can't reliably hit 3s. But I'd rather work around that than have guys play who can't defend or rotate. Royce O'Neale has been a great addition because he's a smart and rugged defender. We need more guys like that.

The main problem I see with this team is we can't really trade the guys we would need to trade to make the team better. We would be much better if we had a real defense-and-passing PG rather than Beal, but nobody is going to take Beal's contract. We should probably cut bait on KD's huge contract, but we can't really trade him and disrespect him like that, plus it'd infuriate Booker and probably make him demand a trade, too. We should probably be starting a plus-defender like Royce O'Neale rather than Grayson Allen, but we also really shouldn't just let Grayson leave for nothing, and if we re-sign him only to bench him, that doesn't make a lot of sense. We probably need more of a defensive center than Nurkic, but we also depend on his passing and facilitation to make up for our broken lack of ball-handling and passing in the starting lineup. So the pieces just don't really fit, and you can't even really fix it by making one-off moves. If you could somehow con a team into giving you a great PG for Beal, that'd be a huge start. But there's no way.

Given those limitations, I think we have no choice but to run this team back next year, largely intact, and hope for internal improvement from having the same guys together for another year. I think another year together would greatly help the offensive flow, the passing, the ball movement, since guys will know each other and have more trust and familiarity. You keep Royce and re-sign Grayson. You try to keep Bol if he'll take a cheap deal. And I think we should make sure any FAs we sign or trades we make are for plus-defenders.

I'd love to see us get another backup center, maybe through the draft (Edey?), to reduce / eliminate any need for Eubanks. I also really want them to find some playable bench guards. Get a young PG who can pass and defend. Get a young 3-and-D SG/swing who can actually play D. Or just play Okogie more.

I don't think this is a championship nucleus, but maybe internal improvement + tweaks makes next season rosier. I've seen some stats that when healthy we have pretty impressive overall team stats and W/L record, despite the eye test being rough. So there's something there. Maybe continuity + tweaks gets us close enough that we can make a deadline deal next season that pushes us over the top.

EDIT: I didn't say so in the original version of this post, but, I also think the Suns should fire Vogel at the end of the season. I don't think he has gotten the most out of this team. I think a coaching change is one of the few substantive things we can change without a crazy unlikely trade or other black swan event.

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:49 pm

I said this some weeks ago in another thread. IMO we acquired too many minus defenders in our current roster, too many shooters and scorers who are only so-so or bad on defense. I think it should be almost mandatory that every rotation player is average or above-average on defense, trending toward above-average for most of them.

I know he isn't the most popular player on this forum, but I think Okogie should not have lost his rotation spot. We should be elevating guys like that. I know Okogie can't reliably hit 3s. But I'd rather work around that than have guys play who can't defend or rotate. Royce O'Neale has been a great addition because he's a smart and rugged defender. We need more guys like that.

The main problem I see with this team is we can't really trade the guys we would need to trade to make the team better. We would be much better if we had a real defense-and-passing PG rather than Beal, but nobody is going to take Beal's contract. We should probably cut bait on KD's huge contract, but we can't really trade him and disrespect him like that, plus it'd infuriate Booker and probably make him demand a trade, too. We should probably be starting a plus-defender like Royce O'Neale rather than Grayson Allen, but we also really shouldn't just let Grayson leave for nothing, and if we re-sign him only to bench him, that doesn't make a lot of sense. We probably need more of a defensive center than Nurkic, but we also depend on his passing and facilitation to make up for our broken lack of ball-handling and passing in the starting lineup. So the pieces just don't really fit, and you can't even really fix it by making one-off moves. If you could somehow con a team into giving you a great PG for Beal, that'd be a huge start. But there's no way.

Given those limitations, I think we have no choice but to run this team back next year, largely intact, and hope for internal improvement from having the same guys together for another year. I think another year together would greatly help the offensive flow, the passing, the ball movement, since guys will know each other and have more trust and familiarity. You keep Royce and re-sign Grayson. You try to keep Bol if he'll take a cheap deal. And I think we should make sure any FAs we sign or trades we make are for plus-defenders.

I'd love to see us get another backup center, maybe through the draft (Edey?), to reduce / eliminate any need for Eubanks. I also really want them to find some playable bench guards. Get a young PG who can pass and defend. Get a young 3-and-D SG/swing who can actually play D. Or just play Okogie more.

I don't think this is a championship nucleus, but maybe internal improvement + tweaks makes next season rosier. I've seen some stats that when healthy we have pretty impressive overall team stats and W/L record, despite the eye test being rough. So there's something there. Maybe continuity + tweaks gets us close enough that we can make a deadline deal next season that pushes us over the top.

I agree with so much of this. The need for Better D in the wings and a good back up 5. Suns swung and missed on seemingly good bench players this past summer. If they run it back I hope they make the right pick ups.

Grayson is probably too small…you gotta pay him, but might need to be a trade option to get some wing defense. At the very least he probably needs to take the EG role if we can find someone for the wing defender role.

I think most of us agree that Vogel is not working out but I kind of feel like he mostly the problem. Yeah, there’s flaws in the roster construction of this team, but there’s to much talent on this team for it to be this glaring. Just feels like Terry Porter but instead of firing him at all star break we kept him all season and let all the bullshit fester and now it’s too much to ignore. It’s clear this team just doesn’t fuck with him.

Also Booker’s headband. Get rid of that shit.

I was not on team fire Vogel, but these last two games have swayed me. They should fire him after the game tonight

I don't see the roster as a problem. We know for a fact that Booker and KD can play better defense, Beal showed that sometimes too.

With the exception of Nurkic and Ewbanks and Gordon, no one on the roster is a bad defender. But the team continues to play defense just when they give a damn, and it doesn't happen often. Or they really don't give a f or the coaches are not coaching defense the way they should.

A way lesser talented team would be making Grayson Allen this year's Kyle Korver while feasting with KD and Book and Beal. The offense should be the best in NBA by all metrics, but we are Nurkic dependant like he's Jokic or Nash.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:03 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:32 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 1:58 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 1:43 pm

There's no running it back with these sorry sacks of shit. It would be one thing if we saw some glimmers of hope and slowly improved throughout the year, but it's glaringly obvious this team has no identity on the court and no leadership off it. You can't seriously think running this team back is a viable option for success. This isn't the Suns team that made the finals and just came up short. This team shows no promise and zero signs of getting it

So, how do you fix?

Retool.

I think you're stuck with Beal.

I'd target Miami and try to offer them KD for Bam or Philly and offer Book for Embiid

I get what you’re saying in general but they’d laugh in our faces about a Book for Embiid offer.

The principle of trade stands. I think it's time to trade one of our stars for either a physical big or a type A like HIMMY Butler

Could Ishbia convince Danny Hurley and the entire Hurley clan to make the valley their home? I'm impressed with Hurley's offense, much more than I am of Young's.

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:19 pm

I was not on team fire Vogel, but these last two games have swayed me. They should fire him after the game tonight

I don’t think a playoff team has ever fired their coach with two games remaining in the season. Not gonna happen. Wouldn’t be prudent at this juncture.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:00 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:19 pm

I was not on team fire Vogel, but these last two games have swayed me. They should fire him after the game tonight

I don’t think a playoff team has ever fired their coach with two games remaining in the season. Not gonna happen. Wouldn’t be prudent at this juncture.

If these last two games were an indication of how they are going to play for Vogel in the playoffs then it couldn’t hurt. Just let Young take over

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:09 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:00 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:19 pm

I was not on team fire Vogel, but these last two games have swayed me. They should fire him after the game tonight

I don’t think a playoff team has ever fired their coach with two games remaining in the season. Not gonna happen. Wouldn’t be prudent at this juncture.

If these last two games were an indication of how they are going to play for Vogel in the playoffs then it couldn’t hurt. Just let Young take over

All I’m saying is it has never happened as far as I know and it most likely won’t now either.

Oh I know it won’t happen…I’m just venting

If Vogel is released, it's going to be Young who's head coach...fwiw...

This thread, imo, is too soon and too reactionary. Again, this team was built for the playoffs. We should wait until that is over (and maybe even another month to let the emotions subside).

Nevertheless, I will say this: I think wholesale changes are a mistake. The team (with minor tweaks) should stay together, and the coaching staff should not change. Continuity will be more valuable than anything else. Besides, the team is pretty much stuck with their current top end talent.

You’re probably right, but it’s more fun to react in the moment haha

What else do we have to talk about? We all see the problems, it can't all be about just the last game or the next game.

What’s wrong?
Team construction & application.
Ability to play defence both on the perimeter and also against any real size at the 4, or the 5 when Nurk sits.
Bench depth at the 5 and 4.
Lack of any real point guard.
Lack of a point guard who can actually control a game, especially in the 4th as this experiment clearly isn’t working as well as they thought.


How do we fix it??

In2ition wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:35 am

What else do we have to talk about? We all see the problems, it can't all be about just the last game or the next game.

Yep. And we can revisit it again after the playoffs but it doesn't look good. We will see what happens. I have a hard time believing this team will just "turn it on" when the playoffs start.