Frank Vogel hired as new Coach

[Split T]

Let’s assume for a bit that Vogel can get Ayton to be 2021 playoffs Ayton again. So we’d be:

Pg: CP3, Payne
Sg: Booker, Shamet
Sf:
Pf: KD, Ish
C: Ayton

We’d then only have the TPMLE and vet min exception to add free agents.

Torrey Craig and Jock Landale are the only players of concern that we have full bird rights on. We can try to trade Shamet(looking at Detroit now that Monty is there), but not sure what we’d get.

I just don’t know how we fill out the roster if we don’t move one of Ayton or CP3 and I just don’t think CP3 gets us anything. But I guess if we nail the TPMLE and get a few title chasers at the vet min, we could do it. Bring back Jock and Josh:

Pg: CP3, Payne, vet min
Sg: Booker, Shamet, vet min
Sf: TPMLE, Okogie, vet min
Pf: KD, Craig, Ish
C: Ayton, Jock, vet min

I don’t think I’d feel great about that team.

[Split T]

Does moving Ayton improve the roster more than an engaged Ayton would? That's the question. No doubt lengthening the roster would do wonders, I love that Vogel is a defensive guy that values rim protection, where does that come from without Ayton (not that he was giving any) if they move on? I've long been in the trade Ayton camp, so I'm just wondering out loud here.

If Vogel thinks he can get 2021 Playoff Ayton to be the Ayton we see on a night-in night-out basis (and especially even more so in the 2024 playoffs) AND you can play him minutes commensurate with Booker, then you keep Ayton and I think we'll be fine. Otherwise, I think the first call you make is to the Pacers and see if they'd be interested in Ayton and Shamet for Turner and Hield.

FTFY

[JeremyG]

I think this has to go down to Book and KD and whether they believe they can play with Ayton.

It has to come down to whether Vogel can get max-level contributions from Ayton on a consistent basis. If Ayton is going to regularly have 14/8 games where he barely even scores in the second halves of games, with mediocre defense, then the Suns aren't winning a championship. It's that simple.

And that's something that a new coach can easily fix.

TOTALLY disagree. See my previous post.

Did you see that I was responding to the bolded/underlined part? So if the coach ran plays for Ayton instead of freezing him out of the offense, he would still barely score in the second half?

[ShelC]

No one froze him out of the offense. When he ran the floor and sealed he got the ball. When he rolled he got the ball. When he popped he got the ball. He had plenty of dropped passes. He got stripped/blocked near the basket more times than any big should. And his weak ass turnaround fades from 14 feet isn't efficient offense. If the players looked him off at times, it's because they didn't trust him.

[specialsauce]

I just can’t wait for DA to be gone and irrelevant so I never have to discuss his underwhelming bitch ass again

[Flagrant Fowl]

I see this has unsurprisingly already turned into an Ayton debate. I'll just say this, no one is changing Ayton. He has to grow a pair and change himself.

As for the hire, it's looking like a homerun from my perspective. I've said for months (take that Gambo) that Vogel is the only available coach that I could completely accept being an upgrade from Monty. My gut feeling is that Kevin Young will stick around for at least one more year, but I suppose there's a chance Toronto goes after him.

[ShelC]

Every thread turns into an Ayton debate. I'm over it. I'm sorry I even responded.

[Split T]

Let’s bring it back to Vogel…what do we know about him? He took the PG pacers to the conference finals twice? Won the 2020 title with the Lakers. That’s a pretty good resume. Known for having a solid defense. Not always the best offense.

It is kinda funny that he was the backup option in LA to Monty and now he’s replacing Monty here.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Every thread turns into an Ayton debate. I'm over it. I'm sorry I even responded.

LOL. Don't sweat it.

I posted weeks ago that Ayton will be one of the first topics brought up to the new coach. We all know none of us are changing our minds about him, so lets just try to read between the lines of Vogel's responses.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Let’s bring it back to Vogel…what do we know about him? He took the PG pacers to the conference finals twice? Won the 2020 title with the Lakers. That’s a pretty good resume. Known for having a solid defense. Not always the best offense.

It is kinda funny that he was the backup option in LA to Monty and now he’s replacing Monty here.

Vogel is definitely the kind of coach to have with established stars like Booker and KD. My biggest fear with Kevin Young was that he'd be too impressionable as a rookie head coach. Vogel isn't going to accept bullshit from anyone on the roster.

[Drewsprocket]

I just hope we construct the roster to fit the coaching. Hiring Igor but not drafting Luka was a total mindfuck. Vogel needs defenders to win. I hope JJ and Ishbia are going to oblige.

[INFORMER]

Vogel needs defenders to win. I hope JJ and Ishbia are going to oblige.

I guess Christian Wood won't be wearing a Suns uniform.

[Drewsprocket]

Vogel needs defenders to win. I hope JJ and Ishbia are going to oblige.

I guess Christian Wood won't be wearing a Suns uniform.

Good grief! Nothing would surprise me. Terrible signings: Wood, re-sign Terrence Ross and Warren. At least we can safely scratch off Russ from the convo.

[Flagrant Fowl]

I can't imagine James Jones signing Christian Wood as a free agent regardless of the coach.

[Superbone]

Does moving Ayton improve the roster more than an engaged Ayton would? That's the question. No doubt lengthening the roster would do wonders, I love that Vogel is a defensive guy that values rim protection, where does that come from without Ayton (not that he was giving any) if they move on? I've long been in the trade Ayton camp, so I'm just wondering out loud here.

That's the million dollar question that nobody knows the answer to.

[Superbone]

I think this has to go down to Book and KD and whether they believe they can play with Ayton.

It has to come down to whether Vogel can get max-level contributions from Ayton on a consistent basis. If Ayton is going to regularly have 14/8 games where he barely even scores in the second halves of games, with mediocre defense, then the Suns aren't winning a championship. It's that simple.

And that's something that a new coach can easily fix.

TOTALLY disagree. See my previous post.

Did you see that I was responding to the bolded/underlined part? So if the coach ran plays for Ayton instead of freezing him out of the offense, he would still barely score in the second half?

OK, I can agree with that. Definitely have to keep him involved. I wish Ayton would take it on himself but he's not that type of player so yeah, let's involve him in the offense in the second half. Like you and Shaq have been saying, gotta give the big man a taste to keep him motivated.

[Superbone]

I see this has unsurprisingly already turned into an Ayton debate. I'll just say this, no one is changing Ayton. He has to grow a pair and change himself.

As for the hire, it's looking like a homerun from my perspective. I've said for months (take that Gambo) that Vogel is the only available coach that I could completely accept being an upgrade from Monty. My gut feeling is that Kevin Young will stick around for at least one more year, but I suppose there's a chance Toronto goes after him.

That's right. And I asked you to explain and you did and it made me feel good about his candidacy. Good call.

[Superbone]

Vogel needs defenders to win. I hope JJ and Ishbia are going to oblige.

I guess Christian Wood won't be wearing a Suns uniform.

Probably a good thing. I've soured on him for sure.

[Superbone]

[Shabazz]

If Vogel is a defensive wizard, we need to get him offensive players, not defenders.