Game Day: Grizzlies (48-32) @ Suns (47-33) , Mon 4/14/14

[In2ition]

If I am keeping Dragic, I also want to give him the best chance to succeed, so Frye is almost imperative, unless you can find a better stretch forward that improves what we have on defense and rebounding, but those areas need work no matter what, anyway. I'd be much more comfortable if we didn't have to rely on Channing so much, at least in terms of minutes per game (same for Tucker).

I would like it if the Suns moved Frye and brought in Spencer Hawes.

That's interesting. I like Hawes, but doesn't he play center? He is skilled enough or has the perimeter skills like Frye, so I suppose he could play that position. Hawes would be really nice next to an athletic defensive shotblocking and rebounding PF like Anthony Davis or Nerlens Noel...doh!

[Ring_Wanted]

If I am keeping Dragic, I also want to give him the best chance to succeed, so Frye is almost imperative, unless you can find a better stretch forward that improves what we have on defense and rebounding, but those areas need work no matter what, anyway. I'd be much more comfortable if we didn't have to rely on Channing so much, at least in terms of minutes per game (same for Tucker).

I would like it if the Suns moved Frye and brought in Spencer Hawes.

I'd consider it, but I'd have to see the numbers. Ceteris paribus I keep Frye. Hawes is more skilled and rebounds better, but I can buy that Frye is a valuable presence. If I am not mistaken, the coach pointed at him and PJ as big locker room leaders. I value things like chemistry and continuity, probably more than many.

[Ring_Wanted]

If I am keeping Dragic, I also want to give him the best chance to succeed, so Frye is almost imperative, unless you can find a better stretch forward that improves what we have on defense and rebounding, but those areas need work no matter what, anyway. I'd be much more comfortable if we didn't have to rely on Channing so much, at least in terms of minutes per game (same for Tucker).

I would like it if the Suns moved Frye and brought in Spencer Hawes.

That's interesting. I like Hawes, but doesn't he play center? He is skilled enough or has the perimeter skills like Frye, so I suppose he could play that position. Hawes would be really nice next to an athletic defensive shotblocking and rebounding PF like Anthony Davis or Nerlens Noel...doh!

Good point about the 76rs, but I believe the biggest impact would be around great penetrators and big man who can play in the post, and Noels isn't there, at least yet, right?

[In2ition]

If I am keeping Dragic, I also want to give him the best chance to succeed, so Frye is almost imperative, unless you can find a better stretch forward that improves what we have on defense and rebounding, but those areas need work no matter what, anyway. I'd be much more comfortable if we didn't have to rely on Channing so much, at least in terms of minutes per game (same for Tucker).

I would like it if the Suns moved Frye and brought in Spencer Hawes.

That's interesting. I like Hawes, but doesn't he play center? He is skilled enough or has the perimeter skills like Frye, so I suppose he could play that position. Hawes would be really nice next to an athletic defensive shotblocking and rebounding PF like Anthony Davis or Nerlens Noel...doh!

Good point about the 76rs, but I believe the biggest impact would be around great penetrators and big man who can play in the post, and Noels isn't there, at least yet, right?

True, I'm just projecting him being that guy.

[INFORMER]

Mmmh so if he was gone for nothing, don't you think the team would be worse off?

If we lost him and did nothing, then yes.

But you can't convince me that the team wouldn't miss him

It's hard for me to talk about missing a player that only played for half a season.

and if he was gone for free, you'd need to use resources just to get back to the same level, even if it's a different product.

And what level is that? A fringe playoff team? Whether Bledsoe stays or goes, this team needs a lot of work.

Also, about Dragic, have you seen him defend this year? He hasn't, and that's a problem that Bledsoe helps alleviating. Maybe he is not the advertised lockdown defender, but his recovering is absolutely magnificent and he doesn't gamble as much as I thought he would. Another plus regarding Dragic is that one more ballhandler of Bledsoe's caliber makes it way easier for everybody, especially a Goran Dragic who tends to pick up his dribble too soon and is vulnerable to pressure.

I'm not arguing that Bledsoe doesn't have value. At the same time, we can find a ball-handler/defender for a lot cheaper if those are the primary concerns of losing Bledsoe.

[TOO]

Bledsoe is more than a ball handler/defender though. He was an 18ppg scorer that shot a high percentage and easily has 22ppg upside, he's also a great rebounder from the guard spot, and we need all the help we can get there. The kid is just scratching the surface IMO. Once he cuts down his TO's and he continues improving his steadily improving J, I dont know how many PGs I'd take over him.

[INFORMER]

Bledsoe is more than a ball handler/defender though.

I get that. But the point was being made that, if we let Bledsoe go, "who's going to help Dragic with the ball-handling?" and "who's going to defend point guards?" which is why I responded with being able to find a cheaper player or players to do those specific things.

[TOO]

Then yes, if thats the way Bledsoe is viewed, he can be replaced by Ish Smith.

[Mori Chu]

My biggest concern about signing Bledsoe is, if we pay him market value, he'll immediately be making almost double what Dragic is making. And I think that sends a bad message. In what way is/was the contribution of Bledsoe twice as much as that of Dragic last season, or going forward?? Dragic was the better player and played all year, not half the year. Dragic showed great loyalty by coming back here after we traded him. And he took a reasonable, not-too-high salary. Bledsoe is here for half a year, puts up worse numbers, and gets paid almost twice as much? What?

I really don't want to do anything that would make Dragic unhappy or want to leave. And I think that's what a pricy Bledsoe signing would do. I'd rather just S&T him to some other team that badly wants his services and maybe get a 1st-rounder or another serviceable player in the trade.

[SwingMan]

My biggest concern about signing Bledsoe is, if we pay him market value, he'll immediately be making almost double what Dragic is making. And I think that sends a bad message. In what way is/was the contribution of Bledsoe twice as much as that of Dragic last season, or going forward?? Dragic was the better player and played all year, not half the year. Dragic showed great loyalty by coming back here after we traded him. And he took a reasonable, not-too-high salary. Bledsoe is here for half a year, puts up worse numbers, and gets paid almost twice as much? What?

I really don't want to do anything that would make Dragic unhappy or want to leave. And I think that's what a pricy Bledsoe signing would do. I'd rather just S&T him to some other team that badly wants his services and maybe get a 1st-rounder or another serviceable player in the trade.

I think the worries are unfounded - Dragic isn't naive (or selfish) enough to hold that against Bledsoe. If anything, Dragic can be confident that he himself has earned a similar extension in a year or two.

Just because Shawn Kemp whined at Payton 17 years ago doesn't mean Dragic will.

[Mori Chu]

I would be okay with it as long as somebody pulled Dragic aside and told him that he's due for similar money when his contract is up for renegotiation. But that also raises the question of whether we want a $25m+ backcourt.

[TOO]

Dragic is only a year out from a big deal, I think he'd be fine signing Bledsoe, it helps the team and it helps him.

[Ring_Wanted]

It's hard for me to talk about missing a player that only played for half a season.

Yet his absence was visibly felt by the team, and its performance is a clear proof of that. I am not personally attached to Bledsoe, but I can't negate his impact.

And what level is that? A fringe playoff team? Whether Bledsoe stays or goes, this team needs a lot of work.

No. Fringe playoffs is what it ended up being, in no small part precisely because Bledsoe went down. But the team played much better basketball before he got injured, defense included. It wasn't until around the allstar (Houston game, I believe)0, when many guys got absolutely exhausted, that we became absolutely atrocious on D, to the point that every game was a lottery. Anyway, the records are there. Compare it with and without Bledsoe.

I'm not arguing that Bledsoe doesn't have value. At the same time, we can find a ball-handler/defender for a lot cheaper if those are the primary concerns of losing Bledsoe.

Yeah, we could sign Avery Bradley, but he doesn't give you 15-18ppg and 6 assists while sharing PG duties. We are talking about an unorthodox system and not every guard can make it work. I am not adamant that they use two guards or else, but if the coach wants it and it worked, I'd rather stick with it and use the available resources to fix what is actually broken.

[INFORMER]

Yet his absence was visibly felt by the team, and its performance is a clear proof of that. I am not personally attached to Bledsoe, but I can't negate his impact.

But I think that's a factor of a lack of talent, not something specifically unique to Bledsoe. And the Suns have more than a few avenues to add talent going into the offseason.

But the team played much better basketball before he got injured, defense included.

The team started on an absolutely blazing pace, but so did Portland. And Brooklyn started the season absolutely atrocious. Its an 82 game season, and it's not uncommon for a team start hotter than they actually. I especially think that applies to a "surprise" and inexperienced team like the Suns.

Yeah, we could sign Avery Bradley, but he doesn't give you 15-18ppg and 6 assists while sharing PG duties. We are talking about an unorthodox system and not every guard can make it work.

The "system" worked when Bledsoe was injured and Dragic ran the point. There's nothing wrong with Dragic running the point. And more importantly, Dragic is better with the ball in his hands. Making him the secondary ball-handler does not maximize his talent. Using your Avery Bradley example, bringing him in takes care of the defensive issues. The overall load on Dragic will be lessened when you add a wing scorer and a low post presence.

[Ring_Wanted]

But I think that's a factor of a lack of talent, not something specifically unique to Bledsoe. And the Suns have more than a few avenues to add talent going into the offseason.

I don't really know what to make of this.

There were more factors than just missing him, I agree, but the team with Bledsoe amounts to X. Substract him, and it becomes a lesser entity. I think that's undisputable. I've watched it happen. If you let him go for nothing, you need to make moves just to get back to where you were, even if in a different form. If that's not settling you back, I don't know what it is.

The team started on an absolutely blazing pace, but so did Portland. And Brooklyn started the season absolutely atrocious. Its an 82 game season, and it's not uncommon for a team start hotter than they actually. I especially think that applies to a "surprise" and inexperienced team like the Suns.

I am not sure I follow this point. Sure, there are fluctuations, variance, etc. So that makes Bledsoe less of a contributor or what? Obviously we weren't invincible with him, but while he was healthy the Suns were firmly in playoff position, not just standings wise, but above all in terms of team play, whereas they were barely .500 during his time out.

The "system" worked when Bledsoe was injured and Dragic ran the point. There's nothing wrong with Dragic running the point. And more importantly, Dragic is better with the ball in his hands. Making him the secondary ball-handler does not maximize his talent. Using your Avery Bradley example, bringing him in takes care of the defensive issues. The overall load on Dragic will be lessened when you add a wing scorer and a low post presence.

The 'system' was not the same with Bledsoe out. Goran had to do absolutely everything and he did a great job, but in the end the team was worse off overall, again, both play and results wise.

I can agree that making Dragic the 1B ballhandler takes something away from him, but the games are long on both sides of the court and it can work, as it has. And above all, I'll take team sucess over one particular player, even if that's The Dragon.

Now, if you find me this other PG or SG who can handle the ball, score, defend and fit even better with Dragic, I am all ears. I guess the draft could bring us somebody who does that, or free agency with the money otherwise spent on Bledsoe, but if healthy, I believe we are better off using the assets, indeed, on a big man and a perimeter player, as I've been saying all season long.

[carey]

Now, if you find me this other PG or SG who can handle the ball, score, defend and fit even better with Dragic, I am all ears.

Goodwin.

What if we moved Bledsoe for a stud PF? I'm not sure who is available, but maybe if we could get a 5 to 10 pick for him? That could be interesting.

Something like... Dragic/Goodwin/Tucker/Vonleh/Plumlee?

[TOO]

Gordon Hayward and Lance Stephenson would fit well with Dragic. Avery Bradley might fit as well, but I think hes better suited to a bench role.

[INFORMER]

There were more factors than just missing him, I agree, but the team with Bledsoe amounts to X. Substract him, and it becomes a lesser entity. I think that's undisputable. I've watched it happen. If you let him go for nothing, you need to make moves just to get back to where you were, even if in a different form. If that's not settling you back, I don't know what it is.

Of course the Suns are a lesser entity without Bledsoe. You're removing a very talented player and replacing him with nothing. I get that.

Let me put it in numbers. Let's say with Bledsoe, the Suns team rates as a 90. Take Bledsoe away (let's give him a value of 25) and the team rates as a 65. Going into the offseason, the Suns have the ability to add two impact players in the draft at least. Let's say each are worth 7. So that's adding a value of 14, which puts the team at 79. Add an impact free agent, which I'll value at 10. That brings the team a value of 89. Factor in improvement from just one of Len or Goodwin, and we'll value that at 5. So that yields a team value of 94, which is a net improvement. That's with one free agent, 2 draft picks, and internal improvement. I think that's conservative.

That's how I look at the loss of Bledsoe.

So that makes Bledsoe less of a contributor or what? Obviously we weren't invincible with him, but while he was healthy the Suns were firmly in playoff position, not just standings wise, but above all in terms of team play, whereas they were barely .500 during his time out.

It doesn't make Bledsoe less of a contributor. It just puts the Suns record prior to his injury in perspective. And it insinuates that the gulf between the Suns with Bledsoe versus without him isn't as wide and irreparable as you might think.

The 'system' was not the same with Bledsoe out. Goran had to do absolutely everything and he did a great job, but in the end the team was worse off overall, again, both play and results wise.

And again, that's what happens when you take away a good player without adding anything in return, which doesn't happen in the offseason. And there is a difference between the system not being the same without Bledsoe and the system not working without Bledsoe. The latter is simply not true.

[Ring_Wanted]

Of course the Suns are a lesser entity without Bledsoe. You're removing a very talented player and replacing him with nothing. I get that.

Let me put it in numbers. Let's say with Bledsoe, the Suns team rates as a 90. Take Bledsoe away (let's give him a value of 25) and the team rates as a 65. Going into the offseason, the Suns have the ability to add two impact players in the draft at least. Let's say each are worth 7. So that's adding a value of 14, which puts the team at 79. Add an impact free agent, which I'll value at 10. That brings the team a value of 89. Factor in improvement from just one of Len or Goodwin, and we'll value that at 5. So that yields a team value of 94, which is a net improvement. That's with one free agent, 2 draft picks, and internal improvement. I think that's conservative.

That's how I look at the loss of Bledsoe.

You are basically agreeing with me. My question is why start at 65 when you can go from 90? My point is that letting him go for nothing forces you to use assets just to get to the same 'gross level', regardless of form or style, and also that it's not a wise path if the difference between fair money and overpaid is in the 3-5M range per year.

I know how valuable cap flexibility is, but if it comes down to it, I sacrifice part of said flexibility to keep a high level contributor to a winning team, and if I need to, I make other moves, like moving the Morrii or letting Frye go, above all since we have a ton of picks and hopefully can select cheap contributors, which is way easier than replacing what Bledsoe does.

It doesn't make Bledsoe less of a contributor. It just puts the Suns record prior to his injury in perspective. And it insinuates that the gulf between the Suns with Bledsoe versus without him isn't as wide and irreparable as you might think.

What? The gulf is that of a 28-15 team against a 20-19 one. Irreparable, obviously not. Wide? I'd say so.

And there is a difference between the system not being the same without Bledsoe and the system not working without Bledsoe. The latter is simply not true.

I don't remember ever saying that the system couldn't work without Bledsoe. I wasn't even a believe, but the performance has been there. What I do say is that finding somebody who can replicate what he did won't be easy and that our efforts would be better invested in addressing the actual needs, instead of shuffling around and hoping that the new guys guarantee you the same team caliber and then some.

[Ring_Wanted]

Now, if you find me this other PG or SG who can handle the ball, score, defend and fit even better with Dragic, I am all ears.

Goodwin.

What if we moved Bledsoe for a stud PF? I'm not sure who is available, but maybe if we could get a 5 to 10 pick for him? That could be interesting.

Something like... Dragic/Goodwin/Tucker/Vonleh/Plumlee?

I wish Archie was that guy, and hopefully that's the case, but he is so raw. He needs a shot, adding muscle and above all, maturing in every conceivable aspect, especially PG skills. I want him to be a consistent contributor, but I wouldn't base my decision regarding Bledsoe on Goodwin. If he ever becomes what his potential suggests, I'll have no problem making moves to optimize our resources.

As for the other scenario, I'm all for it. If you can get a #5-10 in a sign and trade for him, absolutely go for it, but we can't trade him at draft night, so that complicates things.