Re: Suns Trade For Beal!
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 12:30 pm
Suns playoff winning percentage with a starting point guard of:
Chris Paul: .575
Cam Payne: .667
Chris Paul: .575
Cam Payne: .667
This is all really well put, thank you. And, to bring it back around to what we've been talking about: what particular role would Payne bring to the starters that someone else couldn't do better? If the decision is to go bigger with the final starter then it'll be someone like KBD. If Vogel wants the best available point-of-attack guy to take some of that pressure off Booker and Beal, then it's probably Okogie, and you try to minimize the potential offensive issues. If he wants someone who can provide elite spacing on offense and strength and switchability on defense, then maybe it's Gordon.Split T wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 11:59 amPositions matter more for defense imo. Traditionally your pg was your primary initiator and your point of attack defender. Everyone just kinda cross-matched with their counterpart on the other team, but that isn’t really the case anymore.
Like BK said, LeBron was almost always the primary initiator on his teams. He was rarely considered a pg though because he didn’t defend point of attack.
I’m fairly certain Booker will be the primary initiator this year with Beal and KD also taking turns doing that. Let’s say 40% Book and 25% each for Beal and KD with Payne(or Goodwin)probably the other 10%. I doubt that Booker spends 40% of the time defending point of attack though.
So what position is he? He’s a primary initiator on offense and he’ll defend secondary initiators on defense.
There are 96 minutes in the backcourt per game. You have Beal and Book and Eric Gordon. How many minutes do you think Payne will play? And you think he will be starting?
You take these things so seriously.Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 12:36 pmThere are 96 minutes in the backcourt per game. You have Beal and Book and Eric Gordon. How many minutes do you think Payne will play? And you think he will be starting?
Edit:
payne has 6 playoff starts
Chris Paul has had 149 starts.
If this was a stats class what might be the criticism to your above post?
His natural position is point guard, but his archetype is "scoring point guard." As others have said he's not a "game manager." He's got strengths - he can push the pace, get into the paint (and from there kick it out to the perimeter) and hit shots when he's on. But his weaknesses really hurt. He's shaky on defense (foul prone and gambles a ton) and his decision making can be really suspect. Put another way, he's just straight up unreliable.Carno wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 11:26 amSorry, but I most definitely don't "think otherwise because Payne is smaller and faster." He is a natural point guard with point guard skills and mindset, which is different than an SG that plays PG part time. Blitzing Point Book was fairly successful last season. I think Point Book can still work, and I'm fine with it. However, I'd like to see how Payne does first. Even if it's just him bringing the ball up the court to pass it to Book, Beal or Durant.Shabazz wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:36 amBooker and Beal are both better "point guards" than Payne. The only reason people think otherwise is because Payne is smaller and faster.
He's also worse at D than both, so he doesn't solve the "who guards Steph" issue, but would create the "Book guards Paul George" issue.
I agree with Inf here. Seems to me that he is being judged at his worst. He WAS looking much better early last season before he got hurt. I saw him going to his right hand quite a bit. He still too often gets tunnel vision, puts his head down, and drives into a crowd or premier shot-blocker when he shouldn't. There are lots of examples of championship teams that had marginal point guards.
These are reasonable points, and it's his strengths that I like. However, you are overstating his weaknesses. I disagree that he is not a game manager. He does run the offense. Albeit he's no Chris Paul. I do not believe that Booker / Beal / Durant are better "point guards" in the true sense of that position (regardless of the archetype).Shabazz wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 2:36 pmHis natural position is point guard, but his archetype is "scoring point guard." As others have said he's not a "game manager." He's got strengths - he can push the pace, get into the paint (and from there kick it out to the perimeter) and hit shots when he's on. But his weaknesses really hurt. He's shaky on defense (foul prone and gambles a ton) and his decision making can be really suspect.
Oh come on.
I disagree that book has become "really, really good" at navigating blitzes. He has improved, but it is still a glaring weakness in his game, imo. He struggles to beat it off the dribble like most "point guards" can. He's improved on recognizing it and passing out sooner, but that marginalizes his impact. Having Beal and Durant as outlets helps, but it still is easy to take the ball out of Books hands.
Its wearing out Book that is really the primary reason for considering starting Payne. I'm less concerned about offense than I am about defense. I don't like Book covering point guards full time.
Rubio would be perfect.INFORMER wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:06 amI'm not down on Cam, but I think it makes since to move him and Wainright to open up a roster spot and maybe add another second round pick.
For example:
- Payne/Wainright to Detroit for Killian Hayes/2nd round pick
- Payne/Wainright to Cleveland for Ricky Rubio/2nd round pick
- Payne to New Orleans for Kira Lewis/2nd round pick
Monty actually mocked the idea of “load management.” He said that it sounds like a trucking company in Texas, not a basketball term. And CP3 hated the idea as well. So hopefully things will be different now.
Good stuff, Carno. Not sure we’ll see eye to eye on this but I appreciate the argument.Carno wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 7:03 amThese are reasonable points, and it's his strengths that I like. However, you are overstating his weaknesses. I disagree that he is not a game manager. He does run the offense. Albeit he's no Chris Paul. I do not believe that Booker / Beal / Durant are better "point guards" in the true sense of that position (regardless of the archetype).Shabazz wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 2:36 pmHis natural position is point guard, but his archetype is "scoring point guard." As others have said he's not a "game manager." He's got strengths - he can push the pace, get into the paint (and from there kick it out to the perimeter) and hit shots when he's on. But his weaknesses really hurt. He's shaky on defense (foul prone and gambles a ton) and his decision making can be really suspect.
Oh come on.
I disagree that book has become "really, really good" at navigating blitzes. He has improved, but it is still a glaring weakness in his game, imo. He struggles to beat it off the dribble like most "point guards" can. He's improved on recognizing it and passing out sooner, but that marginalizes his impact. Having Beal and Durant as outlets helps, but it still is easy to take the ball out of Books hands.
Its wearing out Book that is really the primary reason for considering starting Payne. I'm less concerned about offense than I am about defense. I don't like Book covering point guards full time.
If this wasn't clear before, I'm not against the Book, Beal, Durant, Ayton + Watanabe/Bates-Diop lineup. It's a valid strategy, and one I'd like to see. Where we differ, I think, is that I'd like to see how starting Payne works out before defaulting to that lineup. It may not work out, but It shouldn't be discounted without giving it a chance.
Very good chance he’s totally washed. He doesn’t seem to have recovered from his late-career ACL injury. He was brutal last season.SunsSince92 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:08 amRubio would be perfect.INFORMER wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:06 amI'm not down on Cam, but I think it makes since to move him and Wainright to open up a roster spot and maybe add another second round pick.
For example:
- Payne/Wainright to Detroit for Killian Hayes/2nd round pick
- Payne/Wainright to Cleveland for Ricky Rubio/2nd round pick
- Payne to New Orleans for Kira Lewis/2nd round pick
I’d love the Detroit trade. Killian’s somewhat redundant in Detroit, but he took a big step last season. I think he has more value than Payne and in line for a bigger role this season.INFORMER wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:06 amI'm not down on Cam, but I think it makes since to move him and Wainright to open up a roster spot and maybe add another second round pick.
For example:
- Payne/Wainright to Detroit for Killian Hayes/2nd round pick
- Payne/Wainright to Cleveland for Ricky Rubio/2nd round pick
- Payne to New Orleans for Kira Lewis/2nd round pick
^ How I read this postINFORMER wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:06 amI'm not down on Cam, but I think it makes since to move him and Wainright to open up a roster spot and maybe add another second round pick.
For example:
[list]Payne/Wainright to Detroit for Killian Hayes/2nd round pick[/list]
[list]Payne/Wainright to Cleveland for Ricky Rubio/2nd round pick[/list]
[list]Payne to New Orleans for Kira Lewis/2nd round pick[/list]
Young will have an incredible arsenal to work with. Let's hope he is up to the task. I think he still has to prove himself. Hopefully, he and Vogel will be a match made in heaven. Can't wait to see!bajanguy008 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 4:30 amThere are two aspects of this clip
The iso ability and shot creation but I still hope our offense isn't stagnant despite the Trio skillset
Secondly I think his playmaking is slept on
With all the posts about our offense in multiple threads
I realize that nobody's been mentioning Kevin Young anymore at all as the great pairing with Vogel.....
Not expecting him to dial up some legit stuff with our weapons ?
That's a good question. Pretty sure he held out LeBron and AD liberally if I remember right. It would be good to go back to his Indiana teams and see how he handled "load management." Anybody recall?
Fixed that for Marty.SunsSince92 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:08 amRubio would be IS perfect.INFORMER wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:06 amI'm not down on Cam, but I think it makes since to move him and Wainright to open up a roster spot and maybe add another second round pick.
For example:
- Payne/Wainright to Detroit for Killian Hayes/2nd round pick
- Payne/Wainright to Cleveland for Ricky Rubio/2nd round pick
- Payne to New Orleans for Kira Lewis/2nd round pick