Whom to pick at 6

[Mori Chu]

I watched some videos of Clarke and liked what I saw. Wish he were a better shooter. Do folks think he can improve his shot, or is it broken? Could he get to the point where he could hit corner 3s?

[Flagrant Fowl]

Everyone says we need a PF we can pair up next to Ayton that doesn't duplicate what he does and doesn't need the ball and space to create. Someone that can actually rebound and most importantly, play defense. That's Clarke. Ayton shores up his shortcomings by being the C that had a good offensive game and smooth jumper.

The paint clogging problem isn’t as big of an issue if Ayton starts hitting 3’s, but if Clarke never shoots, it will be easier for teams to double down on Ayton and leave Clarke. Clarke doesn’t need to be a great shooter, but if he can be average, teams have to close out on him and that opens up more possibilities.

Clarke does seem to be a pretty ideal fit defensively. His size worries me a bit, but it hasn’t stopped him yet, although he will be smaller than both Oubre and Bridges. He’s a better athlete than either of them though.

Ayton needs to be elite inside. Not depending on him hitting 3s. His path to dominance is in the paint. Therefore the other big must stay out of the paint and be a capable 3 pt shooter, not the other way around.

It doesn't make sense to pigeonhole a player like that. Ayton has great shooting mechanics for a big man and he could very likely be a stretch-5 in the mold of Brook Lopez. Just because he's tall doesn't mean he must play in the post, and if there's an equally good inside player on the court then it's best to stretch the better shooter.

Reducing Ayton to a Brook Lopez role would be a massive disappointment.

If we have an equally good inside player on the court, that's a massive disappointment.

I'm depending on Ayton becoming our next franchise player. You should be too. You should be focused on surrounding him with players that maximize his chances at being elite. He will not become elite by becoming an outside shooter. Like you said, Brook Lopez can do that and he's not elite. I want him to do everything Brook Lopez can't because he's a much better player. He should be a generational big man.

We're not going to agree on this draft discussion because I've never expected Ayton to be a generational big man, which is a big reason why I wanted them to draft Luka Doncic.

Lopez was one of the best Centers in the league from 2009-17, earning one All-Star appearance in 2013. I don't think Ayton will do a whole lot better than that. Maybe he makes a couple more All-Star games or a third team All-NBA at his peak, but I really don't think he's going to be Tim Duncan, KG, Shaq, Olajuwon, etc.

It's possible that I'm missing something with Ayton due to the lack of competent PG play and he does become an elite big man who can dominate a game. He certainly talks enough about doing it. I'm just pretty damn skeptical it'll happen after watching recurring mental lapses for his entire rookie year. I hope I'm wrong, but that doesn't change my opinion that the Suns would be wise to find a guy who can make up for Ayton's defensive deficiencies while being flexible with how he's used in the offense.

[Split T]

Everyone says we need a PF we can pair up next to Ayton that doesn't duplicate what he does and doesn't need the ball and space to create. Someone that can actually rebound and most importantly, play defense. That's Clarke. Ayton shores up his shortcomings by being the C that had a good offensive game and smooth jumper.

The paint clogging problem isn’t as big of an issue if Ayton starts hitting 3’s, but if Clarke never shoots, it will be easier for teams to double down on Ayton and leave Clarke. Clarke doesn’t need to be a great shooter, but if he can be average, teams have to close out on him and that opens up more possibilities.

Clarke does seem to be a pretty ideal fit defensively. His size worries me a bit, but it hasn’t stopped him yet, although he will be smaller than both Oubre and Bridges. He’s a better athlete than either of them though.

Ayton needs to be elite inside. Not depending on him hitting 3s. His path to dominance is in the paint. Therefore the other big must stay out of the paint and be a capable 3 pt shooter, not the other way around.

I mostly agree with this and it was part of the point I was trying to make. Clarke as a non shooter hurts Ayton down low. And unless Ayton becomes Towns, it’s probably not ideal to have him shooting tons of 3’s. I do think expanding his game is fine, and I’d like to see him start taking a few 3’s, but I don’t want that to ever be his primary skill.

[Split T]

I watched some videos of Clarke and liked what I saw. Wish he were a better shooter. Do folks think he can improve his shot, or is it broken? Could he get to the point where he could hit corner 3s?

He’s already made drastic improvements, his ft shot is fine and he shot ok from midrange. He hardly attempted any 3’s all season. There is definitely a chance he improves

[In2ition]

I watched some videos of Clarke and liked what I saw. Wish he were a better shooter. Do folks think he can improve his shot, or is it broken? Could he get to the point where he could hit corner 3s?

He’s already made drastic improvements, his ft shot is fine and he shot ok from midrange. He hardly attempted any 3’s all season. There is definitely a chance he improves

He's one of the best in midrange and like you've said he's improved a ton. I don't really see a good reason why he can't and won't become a good 3pt shooter, at least from the corners soon enough. With his touch, he could become the best PF corner 3 spot up shooter in the league. It seems shortsighted to think ot will never happen. I have more faith in him than Dragan, who just has to make minor changes to his shot, but seems to refuse to.

[Split T]

Is there anywhere to see what he shot from different ranges...basketball-reference is usually my go to, but they don’t have the data for college.

[Split T]

[Split T]

I’d be all in for trading 6 to Atl for two of their 3 1sts.

[OE32]

I’d be all in for trading 6 to Atl for two of their 3 1sts.

If we're talking about Culver, Garland, White and Hunter in our range, we have no business keeping the pick.

[Split T]

I’d be all in for trading 6 to Atl for two of their 3 1sts.

If we're talking about Culver, Garland, White and Hunter in our range, we have no business keeping the pick.

My preference:
1. Trade down with ATL and draft Clarke and NAW
2. Trade down with ATL and draft Clarke and ?
3. Draft Garland at 6
4. Draft Culver at 6
5. Draft Clarke at 6

I think I’d be disappointed with any other outcome. Assuming we stay in the draft. Trading for Dinwiddie would be #1

[specialsauce]

The paint clogging problem isn’t as big of an issue if Ayton starts hitting 3’s, but if Clarke never shoots, it will be easier for teams to double down on Ayton and leave Clarke. Clarke doesn’t need to be a great shooter, but if he can be average, teams have to close out on him and that opens up more possibilities.

Clarke does seem to be a pretty ideal fit defensively. His size worries me a bit, but it hasn’t stopped him yet, although he will be smaller than both Oubre and Bridges. He’s a better athlete than either of them though.

Ayton needs to be elite inside. Not depending on him hitting 3s. His path to dominance is in the paint. Therefore the other big must stay out of the paint and be a capable 3 pt shooter, not the other way around.

It doesn't make sense to pigeonhole a player like that. Ayton has great shooting mechanics for a big man and he could very likely be a stretch-5 in the mold of Brook Lopez. Just because he's tall doesn't mean he must play in the post, and if there's an equally good inside player on the court then it's best to stretch the better shooter.

Reducing Ayton to a Brook Lopez role would be a massive disappointment.

If we have an equally good inside player on the court, that's a massive disappointment.

I'm depending on Ayton becoming our next franchise player. You should be too. You should be focused on surrounding him with players that maximize his chances at being elite. He will not become elite by becoming an outside shooter. Like you said, Brook Lopez can do that and he's not elite. I want him to do everything Brook Lopez can't because he's a much better player. He should be a generational big man.

We're not going to agree on this draft discussion because I've never expected Ayton to be a generational big man, which is a big reason why I wanted them to draft Luka Doncic.

Lopez was one of the best Centers in the league from 2009-17, earning one All-Star appearance in 2013. I don't think Ayton will do a whole lot better than that. Maybe he makes a couple more All-Star games or a third team All-NBA at his peak, but I really don't think he's going to be Tim Duncan, KG, Shaq, Olajuwon, etc.

It's possible that I'm missing something with Ayton due to the lack of competent PG play and he does become an elite big man who can dominate a game. He certainly talks enough about doing it. I'm just pretty damn skeptical it'll happen after watching recurring mental lapses for his entire rookie year. I hope I'm wrong, but that doesn't change my opinion that the Suns would be wise to find a guy who can make up for Ayton's defensive deficiencies while being flexible with how he's used in the offense.

He’s got the footwork and touch to be as good as Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan. The talent is absolutely there. The drive is a serious question. But you have to give him every opportunity to become that. We decided he’s our future when we drafted him so we’d be fools to not do everything we can to set him up for success

[O_Gardino]

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

[OE32]

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

Yes, a torn meniscus.

[Superbone]

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

Yes, a torn meniscus.

That's less. (Once they clean it up.)

[Mori Chu]

Trying to figure out the thinking regarding Clarke. They are saying that drafting him #6 would be a reach. Is the plan to trade down and take him later, like at #10 or #12 or wherever, picking up some other asset in the process? Or to acquire another pick to use to get him? Or to take him at #6, regardless of what spot analysts think he "should" be drafted?

[Split T]

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

Not that he’s shown, but shot creation and shooting are probably the two most important skills. And he’s pretty elite at them.

[In2ition]

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

Not that he’s shown, but shot creation and shooting are probably the two most important skills. And he’s pretty elite at them.

Don't you also have to have other skills that show your bballiq, such as passing and creating for others? I would think those would be pretty important as a PG. Another would be ball handling. Just thinking out loud, but if you only judged your PGs by shot creation and shooting, wouldn't they just be a SG? Cam Johnson is pretty good, and probably better at shooting and perhaps even shot creation, but I wouldn't think of him as a PG.

[Split T]

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

Not that he’s shown, but shot creation and shooting are probably the two most important skills. And he’s pretty elite at them.

Don't you also have to have other skills that show your bballiq, such as passing and creating for others? I would think those would be pretty important as a PG. Another would be ball handling. Just thinking out loud, but if you only judged your PGs by shot creation and shooting, wouldn't they just be a SG? Cam Johnson is pretty good, and probably better at shooting and perhaps even shot creation, but I wouldn't think of him as a PG.

Garland is a pretty elite ball handler. I haven’t watched Cam Johnson much, is he not more of a catch and shoot guy?

Garland creates shots off the dribble and has deep range. Small sample size of course, but he hit over 45% from 3 this year and although I don’t have the numbers, I’ve heard that his shooting percentages look pretty legit when including games before college.

I also never called Garland a pg. I’m not a huge fan of the term, it pigeon holes people into roles. He’s probably always going to be more of a scoring guard, just means you need other players that can pass. Of course you’d want him to develop some playmaking for others as well. And it’s not like he is TJ Warren, he can pass...just not his strong suit.

But hardly anyone is coming into the nba as a complete player. Do you want Garland, elite shooter and ball handler who needs to learn how to make plays for others?
Do you want Culver, well rounded player without any real elite tools?
Do you want Clarke, elite defensive skills, but needs to learn to shoot?

Anyone we’ll be picking in this draft has flaws. We just need to decide which ones we can live with, which tools we want, and which players we think will develop.

[O_Gardino]

Trying to figure out the thinking regarding Clarke. They are saying that drafting him #6 would be a reach. Is the plan to trade down and take him later, like at #10 or #12 or wherever, picking up some other asset in the process? Or to acquire another pick to use to get him? Or to take him at #6, regardless of what spot analysts think he "should" be drafted?

yep

[In2ition]

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

Not that he’s shown, but shot creation and shooting are probably the two most important skills. And he’s pretty elite at them.

Don't you also have to have other skills that show your bballiq, such as passing and creating for others? I would think those would be pretty important as a PG. Another would be ball handling. Just thinking out loud, but if you only judged your PGs by shot creation and shooting, wouldn't they just be a SG? Cam Johnson is pretty good, and probably better at shooting and perhaps even shot creation, but I wouldn't think of him as a PG.

Garland is a pretty elite ball handler. I haven’t watched Cam Johnson much, is he not more of a catch and shoot guy?

Garland creates shots off the dribble and has deep range. Small sample size of course, but he hit over 45% from 3 this year and although I don’t have the numbers, I’ve heard that his shooting percentages look pretty legit when including games before college.

I also never called Garland a pg. I’m not a huge fan of the term, it pigeon holes people into roles. He’s probably always going to be more of a scoring guard, just means you need other players that can pass. Of course you’d want him to develop some playmaking for others as well. And it’s not like he is TJ Warren, he can pass...just not his strong suit.

But hardly anyone is coming into the nba as a complete player. Do you want Garland, elite shooter and ball handler who needs to learn how to make plays for others?
Do you want Culver, well rounded player without any real elite tools?
Do you want Clarke, elite defensive skills, but needs to learn to shoot?

Anyone we’ll be picking in this draft has flaws. We just need to decide which ones we can live with, which tools we want, and which players we think will develop.

You are right, everyone has flaws and no one is a complete player.

Do you want Garland, who had more turnovers than assists or a 6'2" shooting guard when the best player on the team is a SG?

I prefer Clarke who had more assists, almost as many steals, and more than twice as many blocked shots than he had turnovers. He also had more blocked shots than missed shots.