Free Agency Thread

[Drewsprocket]

I would trade DA for SGA right now.

Right. I think today, all things being equal, Luka, SGA, and Trae are better players than DA. You could make an argument for JJJ even with the injury history.

No f'n way would I trade DA for SGA. Not even close, and I would have traded the #1 + something for SGA.

I think most teams around the league would rather have SGA. I realize most Suns fans would disagree.

We will see what happens this season. His performance playing alongside a legit point guard will be indicative of what his ceiling will be in the next year or two. I think it’s safe to say he may never be as good as TD or David Robinson. But there’s a chance. After all, great players are made to some extent. The rest of his career from here on out will be his growth these next two years playing on a competitive playoff team with very focused veterans and star players. If Ayton doesn’t knock it out of the park or demonstrates any behind the scenes dumb ass shit (PEDs crap, turns into a Dwight Howard) I would trade him—his stats will be decent put a package together for another star.

[ShelC]

I don't think it's hate for Ayton so much as concern. Concern about a young player who seems to drift or flat out disappear more often than we'd like to see during games. He's "getting by" rather than showing a forcefulness and passion to dominate when he so easily can. For 2 years now, he seems to be more talk than action and if his desire and competitiveness are questionable now, what will they be after signing for $150mil? Then there's the interview where he says he's playing for that second contract if you want to make a point about his priorities. The worst thing would be getting trapped into thinking he's a cornerstone because Chris Paul elevates him and the team, and then when Paul leaves he falls off and the contract becomes an albatross.

He's a glass half full/half empty player. Some say he's a 20-10 big without even trying, which is good enough. Others think he could be so much more despite the stats if had a consistent effort level.

[Split T]

FT rate is the big thing I’m watching. That needs to go up. Like a lot. His FT rate is the same as backup offball guards. That’s inexcusable for someone with his physical gifts. No chance I’d pay him max money if that doesn’t change. Now if he just wants to be a good defensive big who cleans up on the glass and dump offs, I’m happy to keep him around, but that’s a 20 million player, not 30 million.

[ShelC]

And that's the range I'd feel comfortable with. I get wanting to use FT rate as a measure for him tho for me it's not as crucial if the rest of his offense is clicking. Some guys just don't get to the line. But if he's going 10-16 for 24 pts every night on an assortment of post moves, mid range shots and a 3 here and there, I'm OK with it. If he's going to flat out not show up and give us 8 and 6 in games like he had in the bubble, or get beat down the floor on hustle plays or stand and watch while guys like Mikal and Cam are fighting in traffic for rebounds, then I have a problem paying him 30+mil. 100 over 4 to start, go get a better offer and we'll talk.

[Split T]

And that's the range I'd feel comfortable with. I get wanting to use FT rate as a measure for him tho for me it's not as crucial if the rest of his offense is clicking. Some guys just don't get to the line. But if he's going 10-16 for 24 pts every night on an assortment of post moves, mid range shots and a 3 here and there, I'm OK with it. If he's going to flat out not show up and give us 8 and 6 in games like he had in the bubble, or get beat down the floor on hustle plays or stand and watch while guys like Mikal and Cam are fighting in traffic for rebounds, then I have a problem paying him 30+mil. 100 over 4 to start, go get a better offer and we'll talk.

Sure, but even that requires him to get at least 4 combined 3’s and FT made a game. Right now he averages 2 attempts a game. I’m not even sure how being that low is possible. He could double his free throw attempts and it would still be really low.

[O_Gardino]

Like Shel said, it's not hate, it's concern. We all want him to be an impact player on offense. Nobody is rooting against him. But the truth is, Saric out played him to end the season. The last time Ayton was consistently better than Dario was in February.

[carey]

Part of it is he shies away from contact but part of it is the refs just aren't giving him his due yet. He also takes a lot of jumpers. He just needs to be a little more aggressive going to the hoop. I expect to see that a lot more this season.

[gosuns]

And that's the range I'd feel comfortable with. I get wanting to use FT rate as a measure for him tho for me it's not as crucial if the rest of his offense is clicking. Some guys just don't get to the line. But if he's going 10-16 for 24 pts every night on an assortment of post moves, mid range shots and a 3 here and there, I'm OK with it. If he's going to flat out not show up and give us 8 and 6 in games like he had in the bubble, or get beat down the floor on hustle plays or stand and watch while guys like Mikal and Cam are fighting in traffic for rebounds, then I have a problem paying him 30+mil. 100 over 4 to start, go get a better offer and we'll talk.

Sure, but even that requires him to get at least 4 combined 3’s and FT made a game. Right now he averages 2 attempts a game. I’m not even sure how being that low is possible. He could double his free throw attempts and it would still be really low.

But why does he get so few free throw attemps? In general its usage. But i also think he has some huge problems with positioning. For example if the ball isn‘t passed to him on point It‘s a turnover. He reacts slow and has poor judgment on where the ball goes or where he should be to receive it. This means we usually have to pass it to him far away from the basket to make sure he gets the ball, which results in less attempts at the basket and therefore less free throws. Also he often rushes the shoot and doesn‘t put the ball on the floor or use pump fakes to get the defense off balance. The only time he gets free throws is on putbacks and even there he lacks aggressivness and avoids contact. I think the part you can fix is the technical part. Teach him where he has to be, teach him how to put it on the floor. Tough to teach him to be more aggressive.

[JeremyG]

I really don't get all the Ayton hate. Even though he's only partly plugged in, he's still getting 18-12 and is a defensive anchor. Some of you are trying to tell me that a stick figure who shoots 3's and doesn't rebound and defend (JJJ) is going to have a higher ceiling. It doesn't compute.

Someday, the lights will turn on and stay on and Ayton is going to be an all-time top 10 center. Or maybe they won't and he'll still be Patrick Ewing lite. And he's still be more valuable than many of you are giving him credit for.

IIRC a lot of the criticism that Ayton is receiving isn't so different from what was said of Olajuwon back when he was Akeem -- not focused, not tuned in, and empty stats. But I was kind of young back then so I may not be remembering 100% correctly.

For the record, I think it’s about what JJJ can be. I haven’t watched him enough to know how good he is defensively, but he was an elite defensive prospect. The numbers haven’t been kind to him though and show that Ayton is better right now on defense. But he’s also super young still. We’ll see what he ends up like.

Offensively he’s is just so valuable though. He shot 39% from 3 last year on high volume(6.5 3’s a game). That’s just so valuable from potentially the C position. He can also attack off the dribble a bit. If the defense comes around, he’s close to the perfect modern center.

Ayton is a more productive player now. He’s better defensively, better finisher, better rebounder. But I think we’re still trying to figure out what he’s gonna be. I think the defense is actually pretty promising, but he’s kind of a mystery on offense. Seems kinda stuck between what he should be and what he wants to be. He wants to be KAT, he should be David Robinson.

this. it certainly is a gamble due to injury, but I would probably do it. I am worried we have seen close to Ayton's ceiling (meaning he never gets the aggression it takes on the court to be dominaytion ) and I think JJJ is closer to getting it.

But that isn't hate for Ayton. He made great strides last year on defense, and that is a huge step for a 2nd year center.

If Ayton improved last season compared to the previous season, what makes you think he has almost reached his ceiling?

[JeremyG]

He's a glass half full/half empty player. Some say he's a 20-10 big without even trying, which is good enough. Others think he could be so much more despite the stats if had a consistent effort level.

It’s good enough to get a max contract in this league. Look around the league. It’s really not a matter of whether or not he could be “so much more.”

Some say Barkley could have won a championship if he had not been too lazy to play defense. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t an MVP Hall-of-Famer.

“He could be so much more.” So could most players. I just don’t see most of them being judged as harshly as Ayton has been, and he’s only played two seasons while showing improvement and growth. What kind of expectations did everyone have for him? 30-20 instead of 20-12? Who’s ever averaged that besides Wilt Chamberlain?

[virtual9mm]

If Ayton improved last season compared to the previous season, what makes you think he has almost reached his ceiling?

This. Given how much he improved something that he supposedly couldn't improve -- over a single off-season -- how much more upside does he have? It's ridiculous to think that JJJ has huge upside while Ayton's hit his ceiling.

Where is this cognitive bias coming from? I buy the idea of "concern" for Ayton to some degree. But what I'm seeing is more along the lines of "frustration". Let's be honest with ourselves. We all see how easily Ayton could turn things on and dominate. We get frustrated when he doesn't do it consistently.

I distinctly seem to remember Akeem Olajuwon being described as unengaged and a bit listless, even. Certainly not the way we remember him today. I suspect that this will be the case with Ayton as well. Maybe Chris Paul can drill some good habits into him that he can keep for the rest of his career. This sort of thing is kind of what you expect from a young player.

[In2ition]

I would trade DA for SGA right now.

Right. I think today, all things being equal, Luka, SGA, and Trae are better players than DA. You could make an argument for JJJ even with the injury history.

No f'n way would I trade DA for SGA. Not even close, and I would have traded the #1 + something for SGA.

I think most teams around the league would rather have SGA. I realize most Suns fans would disagree.

You could be right, but I would just say good for them.

[O_Gardino]

If Ayton improved last season compared to the previous season, what makes you think he has almost reached his ceiling?

This. Given how much he improved something that he supposedly couldn't improve -- over a single off-season -- how much more upside does he have? It's ridiculous to think that JJJ has huge upside while Ayton's hit his ceiling.

Where is this cognitive bias coming from? I buy the idea of "concern" for Ayton to some degree. But what I'm seeing is more along the lines of "frustration". Let's be honest with ourselves. We all see how easily Ayton could turn things on and dominate. We get frustrated when he doesn't do it consistently.

I distinctly seem to remember Akeem Olajuwon being described as unengaged and a bit listless, even. Certainly not the way we remember him today. I suspect that this will be the case with Ayton as well. Maybe Chris Paul can drill some good habits into him that he can keep for the rest of his career. This sort of thing is kind of what you expect from a young player.

Solid points, and this is part of why I'm so excited for the season. I look forward to seeing what we have in this guy.

[Indy]

If Ayton improved last season compared to the previous season, what makes you think he has almost reached his ceiling?

This. Given how much he improved something that he supposedly couldn't improve -- over a single off-season -- how much more upside does he have? It's ridiculous to think that JJJ has huge upside while Ayton's hit his ceiling.

Where is this cognitive bias coming from? I buy the idea of "concern" for Ayton to some degree. But what I'm seeing is more along the lines of "frustration". Let's be honest with ourselves. We all see how easily Ayton could turn things on and dominate. We get frustrated when he doesn't do it consistently.

I distinctly seem to remember Akeem Olajuwon being described as unengaged and a bit listless, even. Certainly not the way we remember him today. I suspect that this will be the case with Ayton as well. Maybe Chris Paul can drill some good habits into him that he can keep for the rest of his career. This sort of thing is kind of what you expect from a young player.

Solid points, and this is part of why I'm so excited for the season. I look forward to seeing what we have in this guy.

Yep. I want to see him take another leap. If he doesn't, we need to find a way to avoid a max contract at all costs.

[LazarusLong]

"I distinctly seem to remember Akeem Olajuwon being described as unengaged and a bit listless, even."

He was a bit flummoxed that he couldn't get by on athleticism alone, as he did in college.
What helped him was working out in off-season with Moses Malone and Elvin Hayes, who both lived in the Houston area.
They gave him a graduate course in NBA basketball ...

[ShelC]

Came out of Syracuse and LaSalle undrafted, longer 6-7, lefty athletic SF with a good looking 3pt shot. Played a few games with ATL, SAC and ORL.

[rhylek]

I was for drafting Luka, but there's nobody else I'd take over DA.
Sure, he's not perfect, but I think he's still a kid. And this year he will be surrounded by established veterans, he will grow as a person and his game will grow as well. So many people talk about Olajuwon. But when you think Olajuwon, do you think fire, aggression? Still, he's one of the best center ever.

[ShelC]

[Oatmeal]

Ick.

[Indy]

Came out of Syracuse and LaSalle undrafted, longer 6-7, lefty athletic SF with a good looking 3pt shot. Played a few games with ATL, SAC and ORL.

Still nobody over 6-7 to fill out the bench. I really think we need a veteran big.