Game Day: Suns (17-29) @ Bucks (23-22), Mon 1/22/18

[Split T]

Who expected him to be a star? I don't recall anyone thinking that. That draft was billed as a 2 player draft with a huge drop off after Simmons and Ingram

[specialsauce]

Here’s just one example of a poster on this board in a predraft discussion:

I feel like we hear this from specialsauce every year when it comes to Euro bigs. Bender actually might end up being the best player in this draft. He's 7'1" and shoots better than Porzingis, runs the floor, passes almost as well as Simmons, rebounds and has a great motor. Bender isn't a knee jerk reaction, he's actually been thought of as a better prospect for longer than Porzingis.

[carey]

I would argue his talent level puts him at the end of the first round. You get drafted 4th overall with the hype he had, I’m sorry people did expect him to be a star.

Strange. I wanted him at 4 but I never thought "star" even once. Not even potential star. I thought we could get the next Ryan Anderson that could pass and actually defend which is exactly what I thought we needed at the time. He still might turn into that. Though if you wanted to make an argument my description of the player I thought we were getting should not be worthy of a top 5 pick, I'm with you.

[Split T]

Here’s just one example of a poster on this board in a predraft discussion:

I feel like we hear this from specialsauce every year when it comes to Euro bigs. Bender actually might end up being the best player in this draft. He's 7'1" and shoots better than Porzingis, runs the floor, passes almost as well as Simmons, rebounds and has a great motor. Bender isn't a knee jerk reaction, he's actually been thought of as a better prospect for longer than Porzingis.

I read through three predraft discussions and didn't see anyone claim he'd be a star. Must have missed this one, but still, almost everyone was pretty lukewarm about him. When we drafted him at 4, people we're more excited that we didn't take Chriss than they were for Bender. He was the overwhelming favorite of .net posters, but multiple people expressed caution about him as a prospect.

Here is a quote from me:

in reality, this is just a weak draft in general. I hope we don't compare whoever we pick to porzingis from last year. The 4th pick this year is more like the 10-14 of last year.

Another quote from sunsfan4life

If you're comparing Bender to Portzingas you're going to be disappointing. He isn't Portzingas, he isn't near as NBA ready as Kristapas was. He is younger, more untested, and raw. He does however have alot of tools you want in a top 5 selection they just aren't developed yet, hence the risk involved. Will they develop is what makes it a risky pick. I love what he does on D. Unlike alot of euros the guy wants to play D/Be a 2 way player and has shown the ability to guard multiple positions. He'll stretch the floor as well. He needs to work on his physique and his rebounding rate isn't where you would want a 7 footers to be. That's my main concern. Ultimately I think if you tapper expectations the 1st year or 2 years you'll see a guy starting to be a major contributor down the line and offer a unique skillset that can cause mismatches. He had the most potential at 4 IMO, but I wouldn't say he is a slam dunk future "star" or any of that other stuff. I'm optimistic for sure...but its far from a slam dunk. Alot can go wrong with developing Euros. I think he offers more and is further along then Chriss...In this spot/with these players, I liked it.

[n4th4n]

Here’s just one example of a poster on this board in a predraft discussion:

I feel like we hear this from specialsauce every year when it comes to Euro bigs. Bender actually might end up being the best player in this draft. He's 7'1" and shoots better than Porzingis, runs the floor, passes almost as well as Simmons, rebounds and has a great motor. Bender isn't a knee jerk reaction, he's actually been thought of as a better prospect for longer than Porzingis.

I read through three predraft discussions and didn't see anyone claim he'd be a star. Must have missed this one, but still, almost everyone was pretty lukewarm about him. When we drafted him at 4, people we're more excited that we didn't take Chriss than they were for Bender. He was the overwhelming favorite of .net posters, but multiple people expressed caution about him as a prospect.

Here is a quote from me:

in reality, this is just a weak draft in general. I hope we don't compare whoever we pick to porzingis from last year. The 4th pick this year is more like the 10-14 of last year.

Another quote from sunsfan4life

If you're comparing Bender to Portzingas you're going to be disappointing. He isn't Portzingas, he isn't near as NBA ready as Kristapas was. He is younger, more untested, and raw. He does however have alot of tools you want in a top 5 selection they just aren't developed yet, hence the risk involved. Will they develop is what makes it a risky pick. I love what he does on D. Unlike alot of euros the guy wants to play D/Be a 2 way player and has shown the ability to guard multiple positions. He'll stretch the floor as well. He needs to work on his physique and his rebounding rate isn't where you would want a 7 footers to be. That's my main concern. Ultimately I think if you tapper expectations the 1st year or 2 years you'll see a guy starting to be a major contributor down the line and offer a unique skillset that can cause mismatches. He had the most potential at 4 IMO, but I wouldn't say he is a slam dunk future "star" or any of that other stuff. I'm optimistic for sure...but its far from a slam dunk. Alot can go wrong with developing Euros. I think he offers more and is further along then Chriss...In this spot/with these players, I liked it.

Damn, talk about spot on analysis by Sunsfan4life!

[Nodack]

Bender has definitely improved this year. He has become a decent 3pt shooter. He has skills going to the hoop which he rarely uses. He can block some shots. He definitely has his weaknesses. I am nowhere near ready to give up on him. Len was considered a mistake and a few didn’t think he would ever get it. Now he is solid. It took several years for him. Bender can’t even order a beer yet.

I love you special sauce but you have no patience.

[specialsauce]

Bender has definitely improved this year. He has become a decent 3pt shooter. He has skills going to the hoop which he rarely uses. He can block some shots. He definitely has his weaknesses. I am nowhere near ready to give up on him. Len was considered a mistake and a few didn’t think he would ever get it. Now he is solid. It took several years for him. Bender can’t even order a beer yet.

I love you special sauce but you have no patience.

Sorry man, my number one problem with him is bolded above and it’s not for a lack of skill. It’s a personality issue. How can someone play 25 mpg and put up so little in stats and have such little effect on the outcome of a game? They don’t even have to be good statistics, let me just see some offensive fouls, turnovers, misses, bad shots. I’ll take Jackson’s overaggression any day over Benders passiveness. Jackson will learn to slow down. You can’t make a type B a type A.

And whether Len has “arrived” or not is still up for debate. I still don’t see him as a starter in this league.

[virtual9mm]

There’s prospects that you can tell they are just young and are making mistakes, then there’s players that have no aggression and play scared. I have never seen somebody grow from the latter.

Dragic.

[specialsauce]

There’s prospects that you can tell they are just young and are making mistakes, then there’s players that have no aggression and play scared. I have never seen somebody grow from the latter.

Dragic.

Wrong, sorry virtual. See above video and just YouTube his rookie year.

[virtual9mm]

There’s prospects that you can tell they are just young and are making mistakes, then there’s players that have no aggression and play scared. I have never seen somebody grow from the latter.

Dragic.

Wrong, sorry virtual. See above video and just YouTube his rookie year.

I watched him his rookie year, quite closely. The concerns we had about him very much mirror the concerns we have about Bender. Let's not commit retrospective selection bias by looking at highlights and such.

Patience, my friend. Let's not get too excited by a small uptick or a small downtick. I don't think we can properly evaluate them until the beginning of next season.

[Mori Chu]

Nobody is arguing that Bender is great right now. Just that he is ***VERY*** young and that he needs more time. You can't really compare him to a guy like Dragic, who was much older when he came to the NBA. And fwiw, Dragic took several years to become a solid starting NBA PG, too. Patience is a virtue. If you can't handle waiting 2-3 years for players to develop, you shouldn't draft a 19-year-old.

[INFORMER]

I would argue his talent level puts him at the end of the first round. You get drafted 4th overall with the hype he had, I’m sorry people did expect him to be a star.

Yeah, people gushed about both his and Chriss's potential. Both were said to have All-Star potential.

I hated both picks.

[INFORMER]

Len was considered a mistake and a few didn’t think he would ever get it. Now he is solid. It took several years for him.

If you habitually have lotto picks taking 5 years to become solid, you're doing something wrong.

[AmareIsGod]

I would argue his talent level puts him at the end of the first round. You get drafted 4th overall with the hype he had, I’m sorry people did expect him to be a star.

Yeah, people gushed about both his and Chriss's potential. Both were said to have All-Star potential.

I hated both picks.

How many All-Stars have come from that strong draft class?

[INFORMER]

There’s prospects that you can tell they are just young and are making mistakes, then there’s players that have no aggression and play scared. I have never seen somebody grow from the latter.

Dragic.

Wrong, sorry virtual. See above video and just YouTube his rookie year.

I watched him his rookie year, quite closely. The concerns we had about him very much mirror the concerns we have about Bender.

People's perceptions/concerns aside, Dragic was never this bad.

[INFORMER]

I would argue his talent level puts him at the end of the first round. You get drafted 4th overall with the hype he had, I’m sorry people did expect him to be a star.

Yeah, people gushed about both his and Chriss's potential. Both were said to have All-Star potential.

I hated both picks.

How many All-Stars have come from that strong draft class?

I'm not even sure that is a valid question. Devin Booker hasn't even made an All-Star team.

All I'm saying is that people gushed about these guys' potential. I felt it was unwarranted then, and it is proving true. With that said, I'm not saying it's over for them, but concern is warranted.

[INFORMER]

Bender can’t even order a beer yet.

In a league where 30+ years old players are considered old and you have guys in the early 20s putting up All-NBA numbers, I'm not sure that statement means much at all.

[specialsauce]

Nobody is arguing that Bender is great right now. Just that he is ***VERY*** young and that he needs more time. You can't really compare him to a guy like Dragic, who was much older when he came to the NBA. And fwiw, Dragic took several years to become a solid starting NBA PG, too. Patience is a virtue. If you can't handle waiting 2-3 years for players to develop, you shouldn't draft a 19-year-old.

If you think Dragic’s rise in the NBA mirrors what Bender is going through, you are really really seeing Bender through rose colored glasses. Dragic was oozing potential even in his rookie year. He had great drives to the hole, made great passes and had a good shot. He just honed in on all his skills as he gained more experience.

Bender hasn’t shown anything promising but a decent 3 point shot. He’s a deer in headlights out there too scared to do anything at all with the ball other than hand it over to the next guy as quick as he can. How you can see a great future for him objectively without a whole lot of Suns bias is beyond me.

And to AIG, they should have traded their picks for future assets or real talent, not doubled down on a shitty draft. That makes McD look even dumber.

[specialsauce]

Bender can’t even order a beer yet.

In a league where 30+ years old players are considered old and you have guys in the early 20s putting up All-NBA numbers, I'm not sure that statement means much at all.

+1

[Cap]

I would argue his talent level puts him at the end of the first round. You get drafted 4th overall with the hype he had, I’m sorry people did expect him to be a star.

Yeah, people gushed about both his and Chriss's potential. Both were said to have All-Star potential.

I hated both picks.

How many All-Stars have come from that strong draft class?

I'm not even sure that is a valid question. Devin Booker hasn't even made an All-Star team.

All I'm saying is that people gushed about these guys' potential. I felt it was unwarranted then, and it is proving true. With that said, I'm not saying it's over for them, but concern is warranted.

If you're saying voices within the organization hyped their first round picks, that's to be expected. If you're saying here, not really.

I'm on record saying Bender was my pick at #4 "by default," because I didn't see any good prospects and thought we might as well roll the dice on a project with admitted bust potential. I also said before the draft that I didn't like Chriss, but we gave up so little to get him that I didn't really mind the move.