Monty Williams

[ShelC]

Is the inconsistent effort due to the team tuning him out or not wanting to play for him? Or is it due to some guys playing a ton of minutes early on because of injuries and being legitimately tired -physically and mentally?

[O_Gardino]

Monty isn't the best coach in the NBA, but I don't think you can just replace him and get instantly better. He really gets a lot out of the role players, and player buy-in has been very high. When you sign CP3, you know what the offence and locker room culture will be. A different coach isn't likely to "fix" those things.

[The Bobster]

His suns fandom predates his Ayton fandom…but it definitely seems like his Ayton fandom has surpassed his Suns fandom.

By 2 days. He was here 2 days before he was drafted #1...

Well I don’t think when he joined the message board necessarily means he wasn’t a fan before. He was asked about it and he’s been a lifelong fan…believe he even posted a pic at one point of him in suns gear from a long time ago…if I’m recalling correctly.

You are. His fandom goes back longer than many here. Just because he has a huge blindspot with Ayton doesn't mean he is less of a fan.

And to act that this place is the end-all-be-all of Suns fandom is crazy. This is a very small slice of Suns fandom where like 30-40 people actively talk about the team.

Fair enough. We all have our quirks. I'm an asshole many times and have been for years around here which has led to plenty of personal apologies. Jeremy has every right to defend Ayton and bash Monty just like I tend to turn into a dick when certain folks are constantly pessimistic. There's always the ignore feature if it becomes a problem. The fact that I don't have Jeremy on ignore is because I do sometimes need a good dose of Ayton optimism and someone else coming to his defense when I feel people are overly critical about his play.

Let's compare Ayton to another highly-touted college center who was labeled "soft" and "unmotivated" and was ultimately traded -

Robert Parish, GSW - 307 GP, 25.6 Min, .495 FG%, .685 FT%, 9.5 Reb, 13.8 Pts
Robert Parish, BOS - 1106 GP, 31.6 Min, .552 FG%, .730 FT% 10.0 Reb, 16.5 Pts

DeAndre Ayton, PHO - 271 GP, 30.5 Min, .600 FG%, .750 FT%, 10.4 Reb, 16.4 Pts

I think Ayton at his best could be better than Parish, but I think he'd be more of a supporting All-Star level player. But then again, he needs to show a lot more consistancy. (and having frontcourt help like Larry Bird and Kevin McHale rather than Mikal Bridges and Jae Crowder dosn't hurt)

[Superbone]

Monty isn't the best coach in the NBA, but I don't think you can just replace him and get instantly better. He really gets a lot out of the role players, and player buy-in has been very high. When you sign CP3, you know what the offence and locker room culture will be. A different coach isn't likely to "fix" those things.

How soon we forget how bad we had it for many years coaching-wise.

[JeremyG]

Every new owner eventually hires their own people and it seems like it's usually within the first two years, so you're really not going out on that limb like you think you are. But it wouldn't surprise me if you dusted this off in 18 months and claimed clairvoyance.

I actually noted that fact early in the thread. So 85% of people voting were just in denial of reality, I guess? Is that your point?

[In2ition]

Getting help for Ayton next to him would be ideal to make him his best self. Someone like Wood would have been good, but that ship has sailed. Not sure what they are going to do to fix this.

[JeremyG]

I think Vanderbilt at PF would be great.

[Split T]

I’d be very surprised if Monty got let go…he just signed an extension, right? I think the one way for it to happen is if the new owner replaces James Jones in the front office and the new GM decides to tear it down and rebuild. I see the chances of that being very small as well. We might shake up the roster, but I wouldn’t see a tear down happening. Just a retool around Booker.

[Split T]

I think Vanderbilt at PF would be great.

Yes I really think Utah is the team I’d trade with. They are loaded with playable rotation guys and they don’t want to compete right now. Vandy, Clarkson, Beasley, Olynyk.

[Wally_West]

Monty just won coach of the month a month ago lol

[In2ition]

Vanderbilt is not a difference maker, imo. He does nothing to improve the interior defense or shots at the rim. He's only a slight upgrade at the most.

[Superbone]

I think it has very little to do with Williams and much more about Jones. I don't see Jones firing Monty before 2024 training camp, but I expect a new owner to bring in his/her own GM, who will bring in his/her own coach.

Posted October 14th, 2022. I'm actually a little confused going back. Was that just a prediction on Indy's part? OK, I just remembered. Sarver had said by then that he is selling team. Is that correct?

[Split T]

Vanderbilt is not a difference maker, imo. He does nothing to improve the interior defense or shots at the rim. He's only a slight upgrade at the most.

I think it depends on the matchup, he’s a much better option for us on guys like Zion or Randle or Giannis. He’d allow Ayton to stay in the paint and he’d give us an actual small ball 5 option.

[Superbone]

And let's not kid ourselves. The reason Jeremy started the thread is because he doesn't like the way Williams is utilizing Ayton and he personally wants him gone. And you know what, he could be right about the Ayton utilization. At least partially. I don't know.

Is he being used this way because the coaching staff thinks it's the best way to get the most out of him? Are they playing to his strengths? He has shown that he's not interested in being a bruiser around the basket. But could he be more effective near the basket with his hook shot and turnaround jumpers?

And why does his production fall off in second halves and 4th quarters? Is that on him? The coaching staff? Both?

[SunsRIt]

I’m going to ask this because I really don’t know. How many centers have been used like Ayton has in the pick and roll? Isn’t that usually an offense used with power forwards? Is this just the wrong offense for Ayton to be his best in?

[Flagrant Fowl]

Every new owner eventually hires their own people and it seems like it's usually within the first two years, so you're really not going out on that limb like you think you are. But it wouldn't surprise me if you dusted this off in 18 months and claimed clairvoyance.

I actually noted that fact early in the thread. So 85% of people voting were just in denial of reality, I guess? Is that your point?

Sure.

Lets pretend you didn't make this idiotic poll because of some weird fetish with blaming every one of Ayton's issues on anything but him.

[Flagrant Fowl]

I’m going to ask this because I really don’t know. How many centers have been used like Ayton has in the pick and roll? Isn’t that usually an offense used with power forwards? Is this just the wrong offense for Ayton to be his best in?

Unlikely, but for the sake of debate, in what kind of offense would he be more successful?

He's most comfortable in the 10-15 foot range 1v1 against the defender on the baseline or around the free throw line. There's plenty of evidence that he doesn't really want to bully defenders at the rim and his shooting from 20+ feet is inconsistent at best.

He can't dribble with the purpose of beating a defender. He's slow reading defenses and is poor at anticipating double teams. In general, he's usually a step behind whatever the defense is throwing at him besides a straight up 1v1. So what scheme is the best for getting him opportunities in his comfort zone and mitigate his deficiencies?

I can't say for certain that it's the best, but something that is perimeter guard focused draws the defensive attention away from Ayton and more easily allows him to get into situations to score. The problem we're seeing right now is the Suns guards are struggling to score, so defenses are spending more time game planning to limit Ayton because they don't have to worry about Landry Shamet or Mikal Bridges shooting 15-23.

[Mori Chu]

I think Monty Williams isn't doing an A+ job but I'm happy with him overall. I'm impressed with how he is able to keep so many of our bench players ready and involved. Guys like Biyombo or DWJ or Saric don't always get heavy minutes, but when he calls their number, they come in and contribute. I don't think he has "lost" the team or even close to it.

We definitely have a recurring problem where we start games flat and fall behind by 10+ points in first quarters. That is partly on the players and partly on the coaching staff. But it seems fixable to me. For one thing, let's get our best player back. Second, maybe take an early timeout if it's looking bad. I think Monty will figure it out. I definitely do not want to see us fire him.

[Superbone]

He can't dribble with the purpose of beating a defender. He's slow reading defenses and is poor at anticipating double teams. In general, he's usually a step behind whatever the defense is throwing at him besides a straight up 1v1. So what scheme is the best for getting him opportunities in his comfort zone and mitigate his deficiencies?

How many more times is he going to dribble in the key and get the ball stolen from him by a nearby guard before he stops doing it? I'd say it happens on average twice a game.

[Shabazz]

I’m going to ask this because I really don’t know. How many centers have been used like Ayton has in the pick and roll? Isn’t that usually an offense used with power forwards? Is this just the wrong offense for Ayton to be his best in?

Unlikely, but for the sake of debate, in what kind of offense would he be more successful?

He's most comfortable in the 10-15 foot range 1v1 against the defender on the baseline or around the free throw line. There's plenty of evidence that he doesn't really want to bully defenders at the rim and his shooting from 20+ feet is inconsistent at best.

He can't dribble with the purpose of beating a defender. He's slow reading defenses and is poor at anticipating double teams. In general, he's usually a step behind whatever the defense is throwing at him besides a straight up 1v1. So what scheme is the best for getting him opportunities in his comfort zone and mitigate his deficiencies?

I can't say for certain that it's the best, but something that is perimeter guard focused draws the defensive attention away from Ayton and more easily allows him to get into situations to score. The problem we're seeing right now is the Suns guards are struggling to score, so defenses are spending more time game planning to limit Ayton because they don't have to worry about Landry Shamet or Mikal Bridges shooting 15-23.

This whole debate ignores the possibility (and likelihood) that the best offense for maximizing Ayton may not be the best offense for maximizing THE SUNS.