The 2021 Suns Offseason

[Indy]

It isn't about the max dollars per year. It is about the escalations. If Embiid gets hurt again, I can absolutely see Ayton making an All-NBA 3rd team center. CP3 name recognition might even get him an all-star selection in the next year or two. Does that make Ayton worth 40M a year instead of 32M? Hell no. I would be very scared to include those escalations.

[Shabazz]

It isn't about the max dollars per year. It is about the escalations. If Embiid gets hurt again, I can absolutely see Ayton making an All-NBA 3rd team center. CP3 name recognition might even get him an all-star selection in the next year or two. Does that make Ayton worth 40M a year instead of 32M? Hell no. I would be very scared to include those escalations.

We’re at the point where we’re about to be a tax team and It likely won’t further hamper our ability to roster build, so you’re basically just arguing about saving Robert Sarver money.

[Superbone]

I'm not worried about it. It'll get done.

[Split T]

It isn't about the max dollars per year. It is about the escalations. If Embiid gets hurt again, I can absolutely see Ayton making an All-NBA 3rd team center. CP3 name recognition might even get him an all-star selection in the next year or two. Does that make Ayton worth 40M a year instead of 32M? Hell no. I would be very scared to include those escalations.

We’re at the point where we’re about to be a tax team and It likely won’t further hamper our ability to roster build, so you’re basically just arguing about saving Robert Sarver money.

Sarver absolutely will cut costs so it’s more about lowering the amount he needs to cut.

[Split T]

For those that just want us to max him and be over with it, you mean the full 5 year max with escalations? Please tell me how paying Ayton 40 million a year is a good idea. And don’t use the argument that someone will pay him that and it’s the going rate. We are the only team that can pay him that.

[Mori Chu]

For those that just want us to max him and be over with it, you mean the full 5 year max with escalations? Please tell me how paying Ayton 40 million a year is a good idea. And don’t use the argument that someone will pay him that and it’s the going rate. We are the only team that can pay him that.

I'm just trying to be pragmatic and realistic. I think this negotiation goes one of two ways:

- We max out Ayton and make him happy. He is positive about being here and speaks well of the team and city. He plays here for 4-5 more years minimum and we get the best of his prime as our starting center.

Or:

- We nickel and dime Ayton over incentives and escalations and dollars. He gets upset and thinks we undervalue him. He pouts during the season or regresses. It's a distraction. He starts rumbling about feeling unappreciated and maybe being a better fit somewhere else. Now we have Ben Simmons-esque trade rumor drama all over our season while we're supposed to be contending for a title.

IMO these kinds of things go beyond any one contract. You should max out your home-grown stars without any BS because you want to send a signal to the whole league that you take care of your players. When guys on other teams see this crap, they figure, I'm not going to go to Phoenix as an FA because they do this kind of BS to their players, even guys who took them to the Finals and are one of the best at their position in the NBA. Why come here if you think you'll be undervalued and fought for every dollar? There are other teams who won't do that.

If Ayton really is an All-NBA center, then yes, I don't mind paying him a crazy amount of money. The way the league works nowadays is that most contending teams have a bunch of their cap tied up by their top 3-4 stars and use the rest to pay for roleplayers to fill out the roster. For us, that's Booker, CP3, and Ayton, along with various contracts to guys like Bridges, Crowder, and Cam Johnson. But CP3 will be retired in a few years and the other pieces are tradeable as needed. Just pay Ayton and don't look like cheap bastards in front of the whole league.

[AmareIsGod]

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and Porter Jr. are clearly far superior to Ayton. They got a max and he doesn't deserve one.

/s

[Shabazz]

For those that just want us to max him and be over with it, you mean the full 5 year max with escalations? Please tell me how paying Ayton 40 million a year is a good idea. And don’t use the argument that someone will pay him that and it’s the going rate. We are the only team that can pay him that.

We're already eschewing the exceptions at our disposal in favor of minimum contracts. What else can he do?

If he starts attaching draft picks to productive players again, I think I'm out.

[AmareIsGod]

For those that just want us to max him and be over with it, you mean the full 5 year max with escalations? Please tell me how paying Ayton 40 million a year is a good idea. And don’t use the argument that someone will pay him that and it’s the going rate. We are the only team that can pay him that.

I'm just trying to be pragmatic and realistic. I think this negotiation goes one of two ways:

- We max out Ayton and make him happy. He is positive about being here and speaks well of the team and city. He plays here for 4-5 more years minimum and we get the best of his prime as our starting center.

Or:

- We nickel and dime Ayton over incentives and escalations and dollars. He gets upset and thinks we undervalue him. He pouts during the season or regresses. It's a distraction. He starts rumbling about feeling unappreciated and maybe being a better fit somewhere else. Now we have Ben Simmons-esque trade rumor drama all over our season while we're supposed to be contending for a title.

IMO these kinds of things go beyond any one contract. You should max out your home-grown stars without any BS because you want to send a signal to the whole league that you take care of your players. When guys on other teams see this crap, they figure, I'm not going to go to Phoenix as an FA because they do this kind of BS to their players, even guys who took them to the Finals and are one of the best at their position in the NBA. Why come here if you think you'll be undervalued and fought for every dollar? There are other teams who won't do that.

If Ayton really is an All-NBA center, then yes, I don't mind paying him a crazy amount of money. The way the league works nowadays is that most contending teams have a bunch of their cap tied up by their top 3-4 stars and use the rest to pay for roleplayers to fill out the roster. For us, that's Booker, CP3, and Ayton, along with various contracts to guys like Bridges, Crowder, and Cam Johnson. But CP3 will be retired in a few years and the other pieces are tradeable as needed. Just pay Ayton and don't look like cheap bastards in front of the whole league.

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's not my fucking money. Max the kid. Guys like him don't grow on trees. He's already a top 5 center in the NBA. I think we all forget how essential he was during our run to the finals last season. Not his fault we didn't have anyone competent enough to back him up by the time we started our series vs. Milwaukee. Dude had a lot on his shoulders and delivered.

[Shabazz]

[Superbone]

<redacted>

Yeah, with Turkeyglue and Childress, we didn't drop a beat. Who was the other PF replacement? Oh, yeah... Warrick. Our team was so much fun to watch after we got rid of that bum kneed Amare. Those were the days.

[Indy]

For those that just want us to max him and be over with it, you mean the full 5 year max with escalations? Please tell me how paying Ayton 40 million a year is a good idea. And don’t use the argument that someone will pay him that and it’s the going rate. We are the only team that can pay him that.

We're already eschewing the exceptions at our disposal in favor of minimum contracts. What else can he do?

If he starts attaching draft picks to productive players again, I think I'm out.

Nobody is saying he will make good decisions or even decisions that end up saving money in the long-run. He is short-sighted and makes stupid decisions when he thinks he can save some money. I just think finding a way to make him think he got a win here would maybe save some stupid cost-cutting later. Hearing "Ayton signed a $210M contract with the Suns" when he is the 3rd or 4th best player on the team probably scares the shit out of him.

[JeremyG]

I warned you all. I said the fact that nothing had been announced was not a good sign. But y'all wouldn't listen to me.

Forget the escalators. Woj says they won't offer him the max. Nothing about offering him the max without escalators.

That is the scary part. We aren't offering the max. Period. Everyone said, "He's getting the max. Don't worry. It will get done."

[JeremyG]

This also likely means we are lowballing Mikal and can't come to a deal with him either. I would think people would be freaking out about that.

[JeremyG]

I really don’t have a problem with not giving him the max yet. After his playoff performance I figured it was coming and had definitely come around on giving it to him, but I don’t think it’s harmful to make him wait until after this season to prove he’s a max guy.

Have you never heard of Joe Johnson? Sarver never learns.

[Shabazz]

For those that just want us to max him and be over with it, you mean the full 5 year max with escalations? Please tell me how paying Ayton 40 million a year is a good idea. And don’t use the argument that someone will pay him that and it’s the going rate. We are the only team that can pay him that.

We're already eschewing the exceptions at our disposal in favor of minimum contracts. What else can he do?

If he starts attaching draft picks to productive players again, I think I'm out.

Nobody is saying he will make good decisions or even decisions that end up saving money in the long-run. He is short-sighted and makes stupid decisions when he thinks he can save some money. I just think finding a way to make him think he got a win here would maybe save some stupid cost-cutting later. Hearing "Ayton signed a $210M contract with the Suns" when he is the 3rd or 4th best player on the team probably scares the shit out of him.

That's also a function of having a really good team - it means you have a lot of really good players and those players will be expensive. If Ayton was the second best player and we won 32 games, would he feel better about it?

[JeremyG]

But now, with a looming Oct. 18 deadline for rookie extensions, sources said the talks between the Suns and Ayton's representatives have been slowed by ownership's current assertion that Ayton doesn't deserve to be included in that group of players -- and a belief by the 7-footer that his performance, his potential and the marketplace dictate that he does.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/323 ... ources-say

Two things:

1. He "doesn't deserve to be included in that group of players"?! A group that includes SGA and freaking Michael Porter Jr.?!?! That assertion is completely absurd on the face of it.

2. It says "ownership's current assertion." It doesn't say management. This is totally Robert Sarver. But James Jones should threaten to resign if he won't let him offer the max. He is complicit in this disgusting behavior.

[iLLmatic]

I'm not worried about it. It'll get done.

You're too confident in Robert Sarver.

[Split T]

I really don’t have a problem with not giving him the max yet. After his playoff performance I figured it was coming and had definitely come around on giving it to him, but I don’t think it’s harmful to make him wait until after this season to prove he’s a max guy.

Have you never heard of Joe Johnson? Sarver never learns.

The situations aren’t the same. I’m not saying don’t give him the max. Just that we don’t have to commit to it yet. And I’m pretty sure we have offered a version of the max, just not the full max with escalator clauses.

[JeremyG]

I really don’t have a problem with not giving him the max yet. After his playoff performance I figured it was coming and had definitely come around on giving it to him, but I don’t think it’s harmful to make him wait until after this season to prove he’s a max guy.

Have you never heard of Joe Johnson? Sarver never learns.

The situations aren’t the same. I’m not saying don’t give him the max. Just that we don’t have to commit to it yet. And I’m pretty sure we have offered a version of the max, just not the full max with escalator clauses.

I'm pretty sure we have offered no version of a max.

"We don’t have to commit to it yet"--that's what they said about Joe.