Rookie and Sophmore Watch

[Mori Chu]

I think it's exciting to have two rookie forwards and watch them grow this year. I really wanted Sabonis, but if Chriss turns out to be a steal, that will just prove why I am the computer nerd and not the GM.

[O_Gardino]

You know I have never been on asking for his head or pile on him, but neither can consider a success or a low risk move to walk away with a 3&D guy out of a 4th pick, sorry I can't. That has been my point all along.

And you've already made up your mind that that's what he's going to be before he's played a single regular season NBA game?

I don't think that is what Az is trying to say. Others are saying that Bender is at least a 3&D. Az's point is that the "at least" scenario won't be enough for him to praise McD.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

You know I have never been on asking for his head or pile on him, but neither can consider a success or a low risk move to walk away with a 3&D guy out of a 4th pick, sorry I can't. That has been my point all along.

And you've already made up your mind that that's what he's going to be before he's played a single regular season NBA game?

All the opposite, that's why I've been saying all along, that I want more than that out of him.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

You know I have never been on asking for his head or pile on him, but neither can consider a success or a low risk move to walk away with a 3&D guy out of a 4th pick, sorry I can't. That has been my point all along.

And you've already made up your mind that that's what he's going to be before he's played a single regular season NBA game?

I don't think that is what Az is trying to say. Others are saying that Bender is at least a 3&D. Az's point is that the "at least" scenario won't be enough for him to praise McD.

THIS!!!

I expected more from Bender than Sabonis, and obviously than Chriss (I didn't like him at the time), and still hope for him to become our best big, from an all-around balance point of view, but I have to say that Chriss is growing on me fast, I had him out of rotation, but now I prefer him to start, rookie shortcomings and all. Besides Dudley as the PF, looks awful to me.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

I want more than a 3&D player. I'm assuming as a matter of fact that Bender can be at least a Lamar Odom with a straight head. If this was a weak draft on the eyes of our Front Office, then why trade up to get TWO weak picks?

The cost of trading up was the 28th pick, a future second-rounder, and Bogdanovic. Not exactly breaking the bank.

Plus the 13th. Back then, many people around here considered it a costly pick, specially to be used for Chriss. I said "two weak picks", not in current time, but as a way to say that in a supossedly weak draft, suddenly our FO decided to double up their picks, therefore we could said that they decided to take not one, but two players out of a low ceiling year.

We came into the draft with two lottery picks, so we didn't "double up." They saw value in moving up from 13 to 8. The cost of doing that was Bogdan and basically two second-rounders. That's not much. I'm not convinced Bogdan has much trade value, he wasn't in the team's plans, and two second-round picks is what we gave up for two months of Brandan Wright. Yeah, it's a four-for-one trade, but three of the four assets were negligible.

I can see your point, but right now we can't be as objective as in draft day, given that we have now the benefit of seeing Chriss being worthy of such investment, it even looks like a steal. To me, we had too many picks and liked the consolidation move, I didn't like the player picked AT THE TIME.

And like I said, is hard to keep track on when assets are sinful to give up and when they are negligible, I'm starting to suspect that it depends on the argument, not in the asset itself... Many times I have read here that second rounders are valuable assets since they allow to control a player's fate without a guaranteed contract in the middle, among others arguments. I have it clear, since many times I put a second rounder as compensation on proposed trades, and got this observation. Now it turns out, that not one, but TWO second rounders are negligible assets... And I could use your logic in the opposite way, and say that a 13th pick is a lottery pick just in name, since its in the middle of nowhere, not far ago we were complaining on those Suns teams falling just outside of the playoffs and getting the 13-14 pick, so jumping from nowhere to the tail of the real crop of talent in the lottery, could be called "doubling it up".

[JCSunsfan]

Fan's expectation of the draft seem enormous. There is bust potential in every pick, especially in lesser drafts. Just look at the number of #1 picks that turned out horrible. If you get a solid contributing starter with a top 10 pick, you are probably not overjoyed, but you should not be disappointed either.

[Cap]

I can see your point, but right now we can't be as objective as in draft day, given that we have now the benefit of seeing Chriss being worthy of such investment, it even looks like a steal. To me, we had too many picks and liked the consolidation move, I didn't like the player picked AT THE TIME.

And like I said, is hard to keep track on when assets are sinful to give up and when they are negligible, I'm starting to suspect that it depends on the argument, not in the asset itself... Many times I have read here that second rounders are valuable assets since they allow to control a player's fate without a guaranteed contract in the middle, among others arguments. I have it clear, since many times I put a second rounder as compensation on proposed trades, and got this observation. Now it turns out, that not one, but TWO second rounders are negligible assets...

Admittedly, a pair of second-rounders is not completely worthless. I'm on record saying I'd rather have a pair of second-round picks potentially contributing to our future than two months of Wright in the record books. But the value is small.

And I could use your logic in the opposite way, and say that a 13th pick is a lottery pick just in name, since its in the middle of nowhere, not far ago we were complaining on those Suns teams falling just outside of the playoffs and getting the 13-14 pick, so jumping from nowhere to the tail of the real crop of talent in the lottery, could be called "doubling it up".

Well, great. So we moved up from "middle of nowhere" to "poor man's Amar'e," and the cost was Bogdan and two second-rounders. Sounds pretty reasonable.

I guess my point is, don't blame McD for using the #4 pick on a player who wouldn't go #4 in an average draft, because this wasn't an average draft.

But the fact that it wasn't an average draft also doesn't mean there's anything wrong with paying a pittance to move up from 13 to 8, if they liked Chriss more than anyone expected to be available at 13.

[Superbone]

And chances are Bender is gone before 8 if we don't pick him at 4. They got the guys they wanted. Gotta give them that.

[Mori Chu]

Yeah, I think I didn't like trading up to get Chriss at the time. But the price we paid was essentially a pittance. I don't think Bogdanovic and pocket change really amounts to anything. Even if you don't like the picking of Chriss, you have to give them credit for clearly executing the moves they wanted to make to get the guys they liked in that draft.

And thank sweet bejeezus that we aren't selling all of our draft picks any more like we did in the mid-aughts. The team actually restocks with young talent like it is supposed to.

[Cap]

And chances are Bender is gone before 8 if we don't pick him at 4.

Yeah, "chances are" about 99%. The consensus was that he was a top-five prospect in this draft, but wouldn't be in an average draft. In the weeks leading up to the draft, I was worried that Boston might take him at #3. It was only in the last day or so that it became clear they wouldn't.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

I can see your point, but right now we can't be as objective as in draft day, given that we have now the benefit of seeing Chriss being worthy of such investment, it even looks like a steal. To me, we had too many picks and liked the consolidation move, I didn't like the player picked AT THE TIME.

And like I said, is hard to keep track on when assets are sinful to give up and when they are negligible, I'm starting to suspect that it depends on the argument, not in the asset itself... Many times I have read here that second rounders are valuable assets since they allow to control a player's fate without a guaranteed contract in the middle, among others arguments. I have it clear, since many times I put a second rounder as compensation on proposed trades, and got this observation. Now it turns out, that not one, but TWO second rounders are negligible assets...

Admittedly, a pair of second-rounders is not completely worthless. I'm on record saying I'd rather have a pair of second-round picks potentially contributing to our future than two months of Wright in the record books. But the value is small.

And I could use your logic in the opposite way, and say that a 13th pick is a lottery pick just in name, since its in the middle of nowhere, not far ago we were complaining on those Suns teams falling just outside of the playoffs and getting the 13-14 pick, so jumping from nowhere to the tail of the real crop of talent in the lottery, could be called "doubling it up".

Well, great. So we moved up from "middle of nowhere" to "poor man's Amar'e," and the cost was Bogdan and two second-rounders. Sounds pretty reasonable.

I guess my point is, don't blame McD for using the #4 pick on a player who wouldn't go #4 in an average draft, because this wasn't an average draft.

But the fact that it wasn't an average draft also doesn't mean there's anything wrong with paying a pittance to move up from 13 to 8, if they liked Chriss more than anyone expected to be available at 13.

Agreed.

I think the player drafted is the tipping point on this. We are liking Chriss a lot, so we feel like we got a bargain on the assets paid for him. Hopefully this year there won't be clear options later in the lottery or second rounders that make us feel sick for picking Bender and/or Chriss. Something similar to Booker, no matter if there were another gems on the same year taken behind him, we all are happy to get him on board, so there are no regrets. On other years, no matter the slot, we have been burned hard.

[pickle]

I think it's important to also look at the fact that our team, as it is, already has a LOT of youth that we need to develop. Until we figure out a way to unload Bledsoe/Knight/Chandler and go into full rebuilding mode, the youngsters already on the roster are having trouble seeing the court; adding 4 more rookies to that list instead of 3 may not necessarily have been a plus. I would not have minded if we stashed a couple of guys with upside. At the time of the draft I was of the opinion that Chriss was as much of an unknown as guys like Labissierre and other random prospects whose games I have not watched, so in that light I wasn't for packaging multiple picks for one pick. But clearly I was wrong in my evaluation of Chriss and I'm glad that I was.

In terms of evaluating McD, however, I was completely in support of picking Bender at 4, because as many have said, there are no clear options behind him that you can say was definitely a better prospect, and if McD gambled at 8 and that gamble paid off, I also feel that should reflect favorably on him, if in your mind him gambling at 4 and failing hurts him. I don't expect 1 all star and 1 solid starter out of these two picks. If we get one all star out of this summer's pathetic draft class I would have been ecstatic. Here's hoping.

And in terms of the clear better options scenario, I count drafting Markieff one pick before Kawhi as one major failure, and drafting Len ahead of Noel as another... At least Noel is dominant on the defensive end, even if his offense is significantly worse than Len's at this point, I still would have preferred that superior mobility and athleticism.

Overall I've been reasonably impressed by McD this past summer.

[Indy]

At least Noel is dominant on the defensive end, even if his offense is significantly worse than Len's at this point, I still would have preferred that superior mobility and athleticism.

Find one thing, and do it better than almost anyone in the world, and you will be successful. Even doing EVERYTHING in a mediocre way is the fastest path to obscurity.

[JCSunsfan]

I think it's important to also look at the fact that our team, as it is, already has a LOT of youth that we need to develop. Until we figure out a way to unload Bledsoe/Knight/Chandler and go into full rebuilding mode, the youngsters already on the roster are having trouble seeing the court; adding 4 more rookies to that list instead of 3 may not necessarily have been a plus. I would not have minded if we stashed a couple of guys with upside. At the time of the draft I was of the opinion that Chriss was as much of an unknown as guys like Labissierre and other random prospects whose games I have not watched, so in that light I wasn't for packaging multiple picks for one pick. But clearly I was wrong in my evaluation of Chriss and I'm glad that I was.

In terms of evaluating McD, however, I was completely in support of picking Bender at 4, because as many have said, there are no clear options behind him that you can say was definitely a better prospect, and if McD gambled at 8 and that gamble paid off, I also feel that should reflect favorably on him, if in your mind him gambling at 4 and failing hurts him. I don't expect 1 all star and 1 solid starter out of these two picks. If we get one all star out of this summer's pathetic draft class I would have been ecstatic. Here's hoping.

And in terms of the clear better options scenario, I count drafting Markieff one pick before Kawhi as one major failure, and drafting Len ahead of Noel as another... At least Noel is dominant on the defensive end, even if his offense is significantly worse than Len's at this point, I still would have preferred that superior mobility and athleticism.

Overall I've been reasonably impressed by McD this past summer.

Of course, McD did not make the Kieff pick. That was the previous administration.


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[Mori Chu]

^ Was it Blanks/Babby who picked Markieff?

[Superbone]

^ Was it Blanks/Babby who picked Markieff?

Yup.

[Ring_Wanted]

Kawhi is MVP material. The Claw is inescapable.

[pickle]

Of course, McD did not make the Kieff pick. That was the previous administration.


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Yeah I wasn't really rating McD. I was just talking about what types of "mistakes", if you will, I count against a GM.