All Things Ayton

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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ShelC
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by ShelC »

I'm skeptical.

Regardless, DA is more valuable because of his size and interior defense, despite the occasional lapses in effort/concentration. The good news is that he did step up in the playoffs, rather than disappear, which counts a lot IMO. You can excuse a few sleepy games during the season if he's playing his best when they count the most. I feel more confident in his defense getting better than I do him becoming this all-around offensively skilled big, which is fine because we need his defense more than anything. The offensive improvement shouldn't be as important if we're keeping these kinds of offensive players around him.

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JeremyG
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

Indy wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:36 am
ShelC wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:31 am
Split T wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:12 am
Mori Chu wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:34 am
Bridges has been more consistent, but Bridges has never played even close to as well in a big situation as Ayton did during this past season's playoff run. If Bridges had ever been as impactful and dominant as Ayton was during that run, it might be different. But Bridges seems to be showing that he is a strong roleplaying SF who plays great defense, is pretty good at 3-point shooting, is unselfish, and is a mediocre/poor but improving ballhandler and playmaker. He's a nice player to have on our team, but you don't max out a guy like that, not even close.
Ya that was kind of my point. But he is going to get close to the max and I don’t think it’s crazy to think he might feel like he could get even closer after another year, especially a year where he spends a lot more time on ball. If he has a breakout year, he’s getting maxxed next off season…assuming we don’t lock him up now.
Bridges would have to turn into Paul George or Jayson Tatum this season to be in the convo for a max contract.
If he shows more of an on-ball offensive game and gets 18-20 ppg, while keeping the rest of his game, someone would give him a max contract offer in FA.
Which is why it is utterly foolish for them to refuse to give Bridges whatever he is asking for right now (there's no way he's demanding the max right now), when he could very well cost way more to retain next summer.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.

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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

Nobody in the history of the league scored more points per game that Bridges last year with a 15% or lower usage. If he even comes close to that same scoring per usage with a normal uptick in touches, he can be our #2 when Paul declines.

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JeremyG
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

Split T wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:30 am
JeremyG wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:13 am
Split T wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:27 am
AmareIsGod wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:17 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:34 pm
What if Bridges and Ayton are both asking for the max? How do we navigate that? In that sense we may need to let it play out and sign them next offseason.
Serious question for most here. Does Bridges deserve a max and Ayton doesn't? I feel Ayton has proven and shown far more consistency than Bridges.
I disagree with this quite a bit. Bridges has shown far more consistency than Ayton. Still, no I do not think Bridges deserves a max. At this point I’d say Ayton had a higher ceiling. He has not shown to me he is a max player yet, but he has shown it’s within his possibilities. Basically, Ayton is more important, but Bridges is a better player at the moment. Now if Ayton plays the whole season like he did in the playoffs? Yes that would change things.
How is Bridges a better player? Can you point to any specific ways that he has shown to be better than Ayton over the course of a season? I mean obviously he's a better 3-point shooter, but to claim that he's a better player overall just blows my mind.

As for consistency, last (regular) season Bridges had 21 games of scoring in single digits (16 games with <8 points, including 0 points a couple times!), compared to 16 single-digit games for Ayton (only 7 games with <8 points).
Take the playoffs out of your memory…I feel the general consensus last year was that Bridges was our 3rd piece over Ayton.

I don’t really care about scoring. As Shamet says, it’s a we score type team. Advanced stats during the season are pretty back and forth. Ayton takes PER and WS(barely). Bridges takes TS% and BPM. EPM has Ayton at 2.3, slightly ahead of Bridges at 2.2. They were pretty close. Now Ayton was clearly better in the playoffs, I won’t argue that, but my main issue is consistency.

Bridges just does the right thing every time. He plays great defense, he hits open shots, he makes the right pass, the right cut. He’s trustworthy. Now he currently has a cap on what he does for us(though I’d love to see him raise that cap). Ayton has a much higher cap, but the floor is much lower. How many games did he have where he just seemed uninterested or unengaged last year? He puts up numbers because he’s a huge part of the offense and is just huge in general, but when he doesn’t show up, it hurts us a lot.

I hope the playoffs were a turning point for him, but he’s saying the same stuff as he always does, like he wants to not play that way anymore. I just don’t trust him yet. Let’s see what he does this season.
It may have been the "general consensus," but it was never my belief at any point in the last three seasons that Bridges was better than Ayton. I'm not talking about the playoffs (although someone who plays worse vs. someone who plays better in the postseason can't possibly be more valuable).

You say Ayton being uninterested "hurts us a lot." Can you point to where it hurt us? If we hadn't started 8-8 trying to integrate CP3, we would have easily had the best record in the league. I don't see how Ayton's play hurt us a lot in the regular season.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.

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Indy
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Indy »

You do admit that there were entire games, and multiple in a row, where Ayton seemed uninterested in playing, right?

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Split T
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Split T »

No, I don’t have specific things to back up my claim, but early in the season Dario Saric was leading the nba in net rating. We were better when Ayton went off the floor…and even for thr season, while we were quite good with Ayton on the floor, we were actually better overall with him on the bench. I don’t always trust plus/minus numbers but maybe it means something.

I just remember being frustrated on almost a daily basis with Ayton jogging up the court and picking up the slowest guy in transition, or getting the ball 3 feet from the rim and not even looking to score. I had no faith in him going into the playoffs, I checked and he scored in single digits 6/9 games to close the season. He was just not doing anything and that he managed to flip a switch in the playoffs was completely unexpected and of course quite refreshing.

I’m just not sure he’s going to keep that switch flipped. I get the feeling he thinks he sacrificed a bunch in the playoffs and doesn’t want to do that again. I just want to see what version of Ayton shows up.

If playoff Ayton shows up during this season, I’ll eat my words, but I’m just not convinced he will. Hopefully at least he shows up in the post season again.

kiranjitphx2
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by kiranjitphx2 »

You are overthinking it


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kiranjitphx2
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by kiranjitphx2 »

Bridges and crowder


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Drewsprocket
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Drewsprocket »

Playoffs Ayton earned a max deal. It washed him of all of his sins in the media and will so on the market. It’s up to Sarver now whether he will shoot himself in the foot.
Suns will have to spend a year in the luxury tax, It’ll be fine. There will be a new TV deal down the road to make things better. But Bridges and Ayton will be tradeable contracts even if they’re both well paid.

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JeremyG
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

I wouldn't say that Ayton seemed uninterested, just that he didn't play with energy/force/intensity in some games. I still think part of it is physical, and Monty rested him the last three games in the regular season which seemed to help a lot, plus the rest between series always seemed to help. He seemed to have a lot more energy in the first half of each series.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.

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JeremyG
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

In the last 2 games of each series (8 total games), Ayton averaged 12 ppg and 9.5 rpg. In the other playoff games, he averaged 18 and 13.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.

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Split T
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Split T »

JeremyG wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:25 pm
I wouldn't say that Ayton seemed uninterested, just that he didn't play with energy/force/intensity in some games. I still think part of it is physical, and Monty rested him the last three games in the regular season which seemed to help a lot, plus the rest between series always seemed to help. He seemed to have a lot more energy in the first half of each series.
I will say that I did think fatigue was an issue for him all season. We actually had a decent amount of time off in the playoffs and it wasn’t as big of a factor for him…until the finals of course when he did seem to wear down a bit having to match Giannis for 40 minutes a game.

I was encouraged to hear that he took his off season conditioning a little more seriously when Monty called him on his vacation and told him he needed to be ready to go on day 1 of training camp. Of course that also helps the narrative that he wasn’t exactly in shape last season.

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JeremyG
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by JeremyG »

"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.

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In2ition
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by In2ition »

I see what he's saying, but it's a bit over the top for clicks and likes.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
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Mori Chu
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Mori Chu »

I just don't see any way that Bridges gets a max contract. He's like a 4th or 5th piece for a contending team. I love the guy, but he isn't a max player. And I really don't think other teams think he is one, either.

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Superbone
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Superbone »

Lock them up!
"Be Legendary."

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Superbone
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Superbone »

Marks makes a good point that they'll get even more expensive if we wait. Just make it happen, Saver! It would be another notch on his penny wise, pound foolish belt if it doesn't happen before the deadline.
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Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Aztec Sunsfan »

Split T wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:04 pm
No, I don’t have specific things to back up my claim, but early in the season Dario Saric was leading the nba in net rating. We were better when Ayton went off the floor…and even for thr season, while we were quite good with Ayton on the floor, we were actually better overall with him on the bench. I don’t always trust plus/minus numbers but maybe it means something.

I just remember being frustrated on almost a daily basis with Ayton jogging up the court and picking up the slowest guy in transition, or getting the ball 3 feet from the rim and not even looking to score. I had no faith in him going into the playoffs, I checked and he scored in single digits 6/9 games to close the season. He was just not doing anything and that he managed to flip a switch in the playoffs was completely unexpected and of course quite refreshing.

I’m just not sure he’s going to keep that switch flipped. I get the feeling he thinks he sacrificed a bunch in the playoffs and doesn’t want to do that again. I just want to see what version of Ayton shows up.

If playoff Ayton shows up during this season, I’ll eat my words, but I’m just not convinced he will. Hopefully at least he shows up in the post season again.
Completely agreed, I don’t care if the media or his agent is pushing for a Max contract out of a great playoffs run, you do your NBA math, and set your number. If you are a GM and don’t have the nerve to resist that pressure and cave into giving a big contract every time, specially with your RFA, you better go home. It seems there is a lot of post traumatic disorder around here after years of suffering and gut wrenching choices from the FO, but although not our money, is someone else’s money, and they have to maximize their use.

You don’t have to love your boss, in order to respect him, and sooner or later James Jones was going to be on this crossroad with the players, you can’t overpay everyone to keep them praising the team. Maxing out Ayton and figure it out later is the easy way to go, but if you know your boss is going to close the checkbook and start cutting the edges, is better to plan ahead of it.

You can bitch all you want about how cheap your boss is, but you better play your money game considering it.
Last edited by Aztec Sunsfan on Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aztec Sunsfan
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Aztec Sunsfan »

Mori Chu wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:41 pm
I just don't see any way that Bridges gets a max contract. He's like a 4th or 5th piece for a contending team. I love the guy, but he isn't a max player. And I really don't think other teams think he is one, either.
The Suns are not going to field FOUR over $30mill/year players. It is what it is. I would go further and said the most efficient way to go, would be to wait out on BOTH players, max out the one that deserves it next offseason and go for a sign & trade for the other. It’s not usual business, might get tricky or even backfire to pull it off, but from a theory of games perspective, might be the way to go. Of course is not what I want from Jones.

But, I think Bridges’ extension is done, and he is just waiting for the announcement, frustrated only because he is having to wait for the Kid to stop overplaying his hand. If we are going to speculate, we could as well, read between lines a Mikal already on board and reminding Ayton that sometimes it counts more to be where you want to be, that milk out every single penny from a contract, but ending up on NBA hell.

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Split T
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Re: All Things Ayton

Post by Split T »



Good thread on the Ayton extension. I’d be ok with a max deal under these circumstances. Still includes escalators, but not full escalators. 5th year only guaranteed if he reaches certain milestones.

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