Wow. I think this is the sign that the season is doomed. Teams are going to give it a try, then the cases are going to emerge, and then they're going to cancel.Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:42 amTwo Suns test positive. Voluntary workouts shut down.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/ ... 240663001/
Suns News: Coronavirus Break
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
Later, the Suns said they were continuing workouts.Mori Chu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:57 pmWow. I think this is the sign that the season is doomed. Teams are going to give it a try, then the cases are going to emerge, and then they're going to cancel.Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:42 amTwo Suns test positive. Voluntary workouts shut down.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/ ... 240663001/
"Be Legendary."
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
Exactly. And Orlando doesn't have a lot of dependable scoring. Fournier has been up and down. Vucevic is really the only one they can count on consistently. Oubre would be a perfect fit.
Trendon Watford. Please and thank you.
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:42 pmEven if you think Oubre’s definitely better (I can be convinced) then the contract difference might cancel out the talent difference, or if it doesn’t then the #15 is probably too much of a make up and a later first round pick might be fair.
But maybe the chemistry risk is the big one and the #15 is needed for us to get comfortable.
For me, I’m looking at Gordon as an underpriced asset and a better fit for us, Oubre as arguably redundant with Bridges and Johnson, and maybe soon to be overpriced.
Oubre is not redundant of Bridges and Johnson. There are too many games where you get practically nothing from Bridges offensively, and Cam's "killer" 8 points per game is not moving the needle.
Oubre being 5 percentage points higher than Gordon in 3-point shooting is a big deal. And there is a pretty big difference between scoring 18.7 ppg and scoring 14.4 ppg. With Oubre, you don't have to go 2 seasons back to talk up his value. His value is now. He has been getting better and better ever since he got to Phoenix. Oubre's value is now and real; Gordon's is speculative. Oubre has embraced playing in Phoenix, which you can't discount.
Trendon Watford. Please and thank you.
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:44 pmStranger things have happened for sure, but Orlando is not giving up #15 and Gordon for Oubre who'll be free to walk in a year.
- Houston turned Aaron Brooks into Goran Dragic and a 1st round pick.
- Indiana turned nothing into TJ Warren and a second round pick.
- Golden State turned D'Angelo Russell into Andrew Wiggins and a 1st round pick.
If the price is too steep for Orlando, then walk away. We don't need to trade Oubre.
Trendon Watford. Please and thank you.
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
Well said.INFORMER wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:04 pmFlagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:44 pmStranger things have happened for sure, but Orlando is not giving up #15 and Gordon for Oubre who'll be free to walk in a year.
- Houston turned Aaron Brooks into Goran Dragic and a 1st round pick.
- Indiana turned nothing into TJ Warren and a second round pick.
- Golden State turned D'Angelo Russell into Andrew Wiggins and a 1st round pick.
If the price is too steep for Orlando, then walk away. We don't need to trade Oubre.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
You guys got me daydreaming about that #15 pick.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
The grass is always greener on the other side. I think some of the posts in this thread are underrating Oubre. He had a pretty impressive season for us this past year. I guess the best argument against him is that he doesn't pass enough, or that his production is replaceable. After all we had several other SFs like TJ Warren, Josh Jackson, etc. and also have Mikal Bridges waiting in the wings. But Kelly's scoring is quite good and not easy to replace. He reminds me in some ways of Quentin Richardson, a guy whose positive effect on the team chemistry and attitude and camaraderie was bigger than his stats.
Aaron Gordon is a good player, and I'd potentially be willing to make a trade for him. But I think that Orlando would have to give us an asset to make that swap. Oubre is simply producing better than Gordon at this point in time and is a more valuable player, especially when you factor in the contracts.
Aaron Gordon is a good player, and I'd potentially be willing to make a trade for him. But I think that Orlando would have to give us an asset to make that swap. Oubre is simply producing better than Gordon at this point in time and is a more valuable player, especially when you factor in the contracts.
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
You guys and your picks. We've got a sure thing in Oubre.
"Be Legendary."
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
Not to mention his clutchness.Mori Chu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:31 amThe grass is always greener on the other side. I think some of the posts in this thread are underrating Oubre. He had a pretty impressive season for us this past year. I guess the best argument against him is that he doesn't pass enough, or that his production is replaceable. After all we had several other SFs like TJ Warren, Josh Jackson, etc. and also have Mikal Bridges waiting in the wings. But Kelly's scoring is quite good and not easy to replace. He reminds me in some ways of Quentin Richardson, a guy whose positive effect on the team chemistry and attitude and camaraderie was bigger than his stats.
"Be Legendary."
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Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
The only thing I’m dreaming about is getting rid of Oubre, acquiring Gordon, then immediately trading the 15th pick away for an actual basketball player, not a prospect we’ll miss on.
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
Saucy--you were probably advocating in 2014 to trade our 13th pick in 2015 for a real player like Monta Ellis.specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:21 pmThe only thing I’m dreaming about is getting rid of Oubre, acquiring Gordon, then immediately trading the 15th pick away for an actual basketball player, not a prospect we’ll miss on.
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
Agreed. I also like Oubre's ability to play downhill and get into the lane off the dribble. No one else on the perimeter can do that and you need that kind of threat. He's the kind of guy you take for granted while he's on the team.Mori Chu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:31 amThe grass is always greener on the other side. I think some of the posts in this thread are underrating Oubre. He had a pretty impressive season for us this past year. I guess the best argument against him is that he doesn't pass enough, or that his production is replaceable. After all we had several other SFs like TJ Warren, Josh Jackson, etc. and also have Mikal Bridges waiting in the wings. But Kelly's scoring is quite good and not easy to replace. He reminds me in some ways of Quentin Richardson, a guy whose positive effect on the team chemistry and attitude and camaraderie was bigger than his stats.
Aaron Gordon is a good player, and I'd potentially be willing to make a trade for him. But I think that Orlando would have to give us an asset to make that swap. Oubre is simply producing better than Gordon at this point in time and is a more valuable player, especially when you factor in the contracts.
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Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
You would make a great politician- put blinders on for the 15 misses around that one hitIndy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:00 pmSaucy--you were probably advocating in 2014 to trade our 13th pick in 2015 for a real player like Monta Ellis.specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:21 pmThe only thing I’m dreaming about is getting rid of Oubre, acquiring Gordon, then immediately trading the 15th pick away for an actual basketball player, not a prospect we’ll miss on.
And definitely not Monta- but I’m still mad we didn’t draft Jared Jeffries
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
I'm looking forward to Jeffries' Hall of Fame speech.specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:49 pmYou would make a great politician- put blinders on for the 15 misses around that one hitIndy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:00 pmSaucy--you were probably advocating in 2014 to trade our 13th pick in 2015 for a real player like Monta Ellis.specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:21 pmThe only thing I’m dreaming about is getting rid of Oubre, acquiring Gordon, then immediately trading the 15th pick away for an actual basketball player, not a prospect we’ll miss on.
And definitely not Monta- but I’m still mad we didn’t draft Jared Jeffries
"Be Legendary."
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
Bridges is only in his second season and averaged 14ppg over his last 7 games - there was a noticeable improvement in his game as the season went on. He’s a defensive hound, strong 3pt% and is on track to be a legit starter.INFORMER wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:01 pm3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:42 pmEven if you think Oubre’s definitely better (I can be convinced) then the contract difference might cancel out the talent difference, or if it doesn’t then the #15 is probably too much of a make up and a later first round pick might be fair.
But maybe the chemistry risk is the big one and the #15 is needed for us to get comfortable.
For me, I’m looking at Gordon as an underpriced asset and a better fit for us, Oubre as arguably redundant with Bridges and Johnson, and maybe soon to be overpriced.
Oubre is not redundant of Bridges and Johnson. There are too many games where you get practically nothing from Bridges offensively, and Cam's "killer" 8 points per game is not moving the needle.
Oubre being 5 percentage points higher than Gordon in 3-point shooting is a big deal. And there is a pretty big difference between scoring 18.7 ppg and scoring 14.4 ppg. With Oubre, you don't have to go 2 seasons back to talk up his value. His value is now. He has been getting better and better ever since he got to Phoenix. Oubre's value is now and real; Gordon's is speculative. Oubre has embraced playing in Phoenix, which you can't discount.
And you’re overvaluing the 3pt% differential as Gordon had two decent seasons prior to this one.
That said, his drop in output is also to do with not being the focus on offence in addition to not having Payton, so he could face the same issue of less opportunities in Phx .. so yes his output is speculative, not least the 3pt% which is obviously important, and Kelly is a proven commodity for both in the current system, like you said.
I argued that you can’t ignore the contract situation - based on league wide SF contracts Kelly is on target for ~$25m a year, so if we make a straight swap trade (and ignoring all other roster moves) we’d have about $8.5m in additional cap room in 2 years with Gordon on the books for only $16.5m.
I’m starting to think that amount of extra cap room isn’t worth the risk and would need to be compensated for.
Which probably means a Gordon / Oubre trade doesn’t get done as the #15 might just be fair value for us to take that risk but Orlando isn't doing that as the risk of Oubre walking is too high and they’re probably still reeling from the Oladipo give away.
A late first rounder could see each team meet halfway - and I’m firming on this being the equilibrium point - but I doubt it as that pick is largely worthless to us based on recent draft history and Orlando’s risk remains.
So we’re probably waiting till next summer (if Gordon’s still in Orlando) as Kelly’s contract demands might force the issue ... at $30m per, Gordon will start to look a lot more appealing.
Last edited by 3rdside on Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
I guess my point is that you are always advocating for getting rid of picks to sign "real NBA players" and when you do that, you don't get markedly better. You will have a hard time finding more than 1 or 2 championship teams over the last 30 years that didn't draft their Superstar 1A or 1B (or are the Lakers that tampered to get Shaq).specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:49 pmYou would make a great politician- put blinders on for the 15 misses around that one hitIndy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:00 pmSaucy--you were probably advocating in 2014 to trade our 13th pick in 2015 for a real player like Monta Ellis.specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:21 pmThe only thing I’m dreaming about is getting rid of Oubre, acquiring Gordon, then immediately trading the 15th pick away for an actual basketball player, not a prospect we’ll miss on.
And definitely not Monta- but I’m still mad we didn’t draft Jared Jeffries
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Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
We already have our 1A and 1B. It’s time to get real contributors around DA and Book
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Re: Suns News: Coronavirus Break
Not sure we do. Devin looks like a great 2nd star, and Ayton has not shown the on-court mentality to be either, just the off-court talk.specialsauce wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:35 amWe already have our 1A and 1B. It’s time to get real contributors around DA and Book
I think any of us would instantly surrender any of them for the real difference makers around the league, so that tells a lot about how we truly feel about our Top two guys.