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Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:50 pm
by Ring_Wanted
Indy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:12 pm
Cap wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:08 am
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:17 am
The Bobster wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:07 am
I think you always draft BPA. If you end up drafting a Steve Nash when you already have a Jason Kidd and a Kevin Johnson, so be
it.
That didn't work out. We got lucky to get him back in his prime.
We traded him for the pick that became Shawn Marion, so I’d say it worked out.
It was a good trade for both teams. Now that trade for Finley, not so much.
?? Finley was used to acquire Kidd, a vastly superior player.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:04 pm
by Superbone
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:38 am
Can we declare Stix a bust yet?
Of course not. Don't be silly.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:18 pm
by Indy
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:50 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:12 pm
Cap wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:08 am
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:17 am
The Bobster wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:07 am
I think you always draft BPA. If you end up drafting a Steve Nash when you already have a Jason Kidd and a Kevin Johnson, so be
it.
That didn't work out. We got lucky to get him back in his prime.
We traded him for the pick that became Shawn Marion, so I’d say it worked out.
It was a good trade for both teams. Now that trade for Finley, not so much.
?? Finley was used to acquire Kidd, a vastly superior player.
When you bring in a "superior" player to a team already making the playoffs, you want to see a return on your investment. We had 5 years of him, being added to a playoff team already, and he never got us out of the 1st round. In fact, the only time he was here and we got out of the first round was the year he broke his ankle, we had to call up KJ from retirement.
Oh, and he is a wife beater.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:46 pm
by JeremyG
Indy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:18 pm
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:50 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:12 pm
Cap wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:08 am
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:17 am
That didn't work out. We got lucky to get him back in his prime.
We traded him for the pick that became Shawn Marion, so I’d say it worked out.
It was a good trade for both teams. Now that trade for Finley, not so much.
?? Finley was used to acquire Kidd, a vastly superior player.
When you bring in a "superior" player to a team already making the playoffs, you want to see a return on your investment. We had 5 years of him, being added to a playoff team already, and he never got us out of the 1st round. In fact, the only time he was here and we got out of the first round was the year he broke his ankle, we had to call up KJ from retirement.
Oh, and he is a wife beater.
We were 8-19 at the time of the trade, not exactly "a team already making the playoffs." And we were an OT loss away from the second round that season.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:31 pm
by Indy
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:46 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:18 pm
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:50 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:12 pm
Cap wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:08 am
We traded him for the pick that became Shawn Marion, so I’d say it worked out.
It was a good trade for both teams. Now that trade for Finley, not so much.
?? Finley was used to acquire Kidd, a vastly superior player.
When you bring in a "superior" player to a team already making the playoffs, you want to see a return on your investment. We had 5 years of him, being added to a playoff team already, and he never got us out of the 1st round. In fact, the only time he was here and we got out of the first round was the year he broke his ankle, we had to call up KJ from retirement.
Oh, and he is a wife beater.
We were 8-19 at the time of the trade, not exactly "a team already making the playoffs." And we were an OT loss away from the second round that season.
We had been in the playoffs for 8 years straight, right? And just traded Barkley for guys that didn't want to be here? And started off losing 13 straight? So we panicked and sold off Horry and Cassell as quickly as possible. It wasn't a good trade, if you measure trades by "did it make my team better."
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:29 pm
by LazarusLong
Kidd was a great point guard, but Meyer was damaged goods and Dumas never amounted to much.
Finley had a very solid NBA career. So did Cassell. Green still had some gas in the tank. Dallas did well in that trade.
(edit) this was the trade ...
December 26, 1996: Finley traded by the Phoenix Suns with Sam Cassell, A.C. Green and a 1998 2nd round draft pick (Greg Buckner was later selected) to the Dallas Mavericks for Tony Dumas, Jason Kidd and Loren Meyer.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:24 pm
by INFORMER
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:31 am
I don't think we would beat the (healthy) Lakers or the Nuggets in a 7-game series right now. We might beat the Jazz or Clips. I think we are likely a 2nd round team in this year's playoffs. WCF could be possible depending on matchups or injuries but I don't like our odds against Denver or LA.
I feel very confident that the Suns would absolutely beat Utah or LAC in a 7-game series.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:27 pm
by INFORMER
Cap wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:08 am
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:17 am
The Bobster wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:07 am
I think you always draft BPA. If you end up drafting a Steve Nash when you already have a Jason Kidd and a Kevin Johnson, so be
it.
That didn't work out. We got lucky to get him back in his prime.
We traded him for the pick that became Shawn Marion, so I’d say it worked out.
Agreed. At the time, I was disappointed that we moved him as I thought he had a lot of promise, but I understood at the time that he was more of a luxury than anything else. And the Marion pick looked good almost instantly.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:35 pm
by INFORMER
Indy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:31 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:46 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:18 pm
When you bring in a "superior" player to a team already making the playoffs, you want to see a return on your investment. We had 5 years of him, being added to a playoff team already, and he never got us out of the 1st round. In fact, the only time he was here and we got out of the first round was the year he broke his ankle, we had to call up KJ from retirement.
Oh, and he is a wife beater.
We were 8-19 at the time of the trade, not exactly "a team already making the playoffs." And we were an OT loss away from the second round that season.
We had been in the playoffs for 8 years straight, right? And just traded Barkley for guys that didn't want to be here? And started off losing 13 straight? So we panicked and sold off Horry and Cassell as quickly as possible. It wasn't a good trade, if you measure trades by "did it make my team better."
Indy, I think you're way off here. I understand personally not liking Jason Kidd, and even from a basketball perspective, he certainly had his flaws.
But ultimately, the Suns traded Finley for a HOF in going into his prime. That's a win. The Suns didn't panic in 1996-97; the team they constructed post-Barkley wasn't good. The team was going to be a lottery team, and the Suns pulled off a series of trades that got them into the playoffs and gave us a terrific series against the Sonics.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:33 pm
by Charlie Smithy!
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:33 pm
I understand people wanting to like "their guys", but championship organizations don't let their feelings get in the way of winning.
Here's the reality. The Suns aren't going to win the title this year. But they're going to learn a lot about the guys they have, mainly how they perform when it really matters in the playoffs. If any of the young guys (Mikal, Ayton, Cam) obviously disappear in those moments, James Jones wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't consider trying to upgrade the player in their role to someone more reliable and experienced.
Obviously this is just conjecture because we don't know how those guys will perform in two months. What I am certain of is the title window for this team lead by Paul and Booker is narrow. If it requires losing a young player to really put the Suns in the title discussion next season, then it must be done.
What I'm describing is exactly what Denver did at the trade deadline. They loved RJ Hampton, and he'll probably be pretty good someday, but they had to make that move now before Porter Jr. signs his next contract. They were in the same spot as the Suns two weeks ago, but now they're second in the West behind the Lakers in my mind because they acquired a more reliable player.
I'm glad you're not my dad.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:49 pm
by Cap
Charlie Smithy! wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:33 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:33 pm
I understand people wanting to like "their guys", but championship organizations don't let their feelings get in the way of winning.
Here's the reality. The Suns aren't going to win the title this year. But they're going to learn a lot about the guys they have, mainly how they perform when it really matters in the playoffs. If any of the young guys (Mikal, Ayton, Cam) obviously disappear in those moments, James Jones wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't consider trying to upgrade the player in their role to someone more reliable and experienced.
Obviously this is just conjecture because we don't know how those guys will perform in two months. What I am certain of is the title window for this team lead by Paul and Booker is narrow. If it requires losing a young player to really put the Suns in the title discussion next season, then it must be done.
What I'm describing is exactly what Denver did at the trade deadline. They loved RJ Hampton, and he'll probably be pretty good someday, but they had to make that move now before Porter Jr. signs his next contract. They were in the same spot as the Suns two weeks ago, but now they're second in the West behind the Lakers in my mind because they acquired a more reliable player.
I'm glad you're not my dad.
Because he would’ve traded you for a better kid?
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:59 pm
by Charlie Smithy!
Cap wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:49 pm
Charlie Smithy! wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:33 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:33 pm
I understand people wanting to like "their guys", but championship organizations don't let their feelings get in the way of winning.
Here's the reality. The Suns aren't going to win the title this year. But they're going to learn a lot about the guys they have, mainly how they perform when it really matters in the playoffs. If any of the young guys (Mikal, Ayton, Cam) obviously disappear in those moments, James Jones wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't consider trying to upgrade the player in their role to someone more reliable and experienced.
Obviously this is just conjecture because we don't know how those guys will perform in two months. What I am certain of is the title window for this team lead by Paul and Booker is narrow. If it requires losing a young player to really put the Suns in the title discussion next season, then it must be done.
What I'm describing is exactly what Denver did at the trade deadline. They loved RJ Hampton, and he'll probably be pretty good someday, but they had to make that move now before Porter Jr. signs his next contract. They were in the same spot as the Suns two weeks ago, but now they're second in the West behind the Lakers in my mind because they acquired a more reliable player.
I'm glad you're not my dad.
Because he would’ve traded you for a better kid?
Ironically, that's what my real dad did when he pretty much went out for cigarettes.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:30 pm
by INFORMER
I'm sorry, Charlie.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:37 pm
by INFORMER
ShelC wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:30 am
I thought Patrick Williams was playing really good defense on Book, Book was just better.
Williams recovery and contest once Book made a move on him was a step or two late all night. Book didn't have a hand in his face until the ball was already released.
On the other hand, Williams had a tremendous play when he broke up the lob to Ayton. He just "man's game" the ball away from Ayton. That was nice.
In general, it's nice to see Booker light up a rookie for 40+, rather than a rookie light up the Suns for 40+.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:47 pm
by Charlie Smithy!
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:30 pm
I'm sorry, Charlie.
No worries! Years of therapy, mindfulness, meditation, and my hate-boner for Flagrant Fowl's unbelief continue to sustain me
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:06 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
Glad to help.
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:34 pm
by Charlie Smithy!
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:00 pm
by Indy
Charlie Smithy! wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:47 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:30 pm
I'm sorry, Charlie.
No worries! Years of therapy, mindfulness, meditation, and my hate-boner for Flagrant Fowl's unbelief continue to sustain me
lol
glad you are in a better place now
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:00 pm
by Indy
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:35 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:31 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:46 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:18 pm
When you bring in a "superior" player to a team already making the playoffs, you want to see a return on your investment. We had 5 years of him, being added to a playoff team already, and he never got us out of the 1st round. In fact, the only time he was here and we got out of the first round was the year he broke his ankle, we had to call up KJ from retirement.
Oh, and he is a wife beater.
We were 8-19 at the time of the trade, not exactly "a team already making the playoffs." And we were an OT loss away from the second round that season.
We had been in the playoffs for 8 years straight, right? And just traded Barkley for guys that didn't want to be here? And started off losing 13 straight? So we panicked and sold off Horry and Cassell as quickly as possible. It wasn't a good trade, if you measure trades by "did it make my team better."
Indy, I think you're way off here. I understand personally not liking Jason Kidd, and even from a basketball perspective, he certainly had his flaws.
But ultimately, the Suns traded Finley for a HOF in going into his prime. That's a win. The Suns didn't panic in 1996-97; the team they constructed post-Barkley wasn't good. The team was going to be a lottery team, and the Suns pulled off a series of trades that got them into the playoffs and gave us a terrific series against the Sonics.
Was our team better in the 5 years kidd was here than the 5 years before he got here or the 5 years after he left?
Re: Game Day: Bulls (19-26) @ Suns (32-14), Wed 3/31/21
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:48 pm
by INFORMER
Indy, I don't even get the point of even looking at it that way. The 5-year block seems awfully arbitrary. The 5 years prior to Kidd being here, the Suns had one of the best players to ever play the game. You're not guaranteed to get those. So I don't see the point in comparing Kidd's tenure to that. The era of Suns basketball ran its course. It isn't like the The Suns dealt Barley and Co. in their prime for Jason Kidd thinking Kidd was going to be better than them.
And immediately after the Suns dealt Kidd, they weren''t better. Marbury was a waste, not an improvement from Kidd, and the Suns wisely moved on from him.
