The 2021 Suns Offseason

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Mori Chu
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Mori Chu »

I love CP3, but why do these national media types keep ranking him ahead of Booker? It's just crazy. I would take Book on my team in a heartbeat over CP3 despite all the great things the latter brings to the table.

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Superbone
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Superbone »

Mori Chu wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:32 am
I love CP3, but why do these national media types keep ranking him ahead of Booker? It's just crazy. I would take Book on my team in a heartbeat over CP3 despite all the great things the latter brings to the table.
We didn't start winning until we got Paul, that's why. It's not about potential. It's about right now. Paul is already an all-time great.
"Be Legendary."

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Shabazz
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

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Split T wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:34 am
SunsRIt wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:13 pm
Ayton ranked 35th best player in the league by ESPN.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/322 ... 1-22-50-26
Spoiler: show/hide
Book at 15 and CP3 at 13. Bridges was 66 I believe.
Where was Frank?

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Superbone
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Superbone »

Shabazz wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:18 am
Split T wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:34 am
SunsRIt wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:13 pm
Ayton ranked 35th best player in the league by ESPN.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/322 ... 1-22-50-26
Spoiler: show/hide
Book at 15 and CP3 at 13. Bridges was 66 I believe.
Where was Frank?
In the bathroom.
"Be Legendary."

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In2ition
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by In2ition »

Mori Chu wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:32 am
I love CP3, but why do these national media types keep ranking him ahead of Booker? It's just crazy. I would take Book on my team in a heartbeat over CP3 despite all the great things the latter brings to the table.
It's because he's always been better, they have their own old false takes about Booker to protect. Also, they falsely claim that the Suns only got better when Paul came, but forgot that the Suns were pretty good when Ayton was available and went 8-0 in playoff win or go home type pressure games in the bubble prior to Paul.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Drewsprocket
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Drewsprocket »

I can accept that people still don’t know how to make sense of the Suns right now. In the the shadow of the Lakers and Lebron perhaps we’ll always get under credited. Suns will have to take down a healthy Juggernaut team to get any credit. In the meantime, I think it serves them to be disrespected in the media.

Bucktastic365
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Bucktastic365 »

Can I ask an off-topic question that has been lingering in my mind?

What would the hypothetical limit be to a line-up of: Booker, Shamet/other, Bridges, Johnson, and Ayton be?

I'm futurising, but based on money I'm thinking this is the general direction we are headed.
Booker, maxed. Ayton, maxed. Rumor is Bridges 100+. We still need to keep Cam some way.
Paul's contact ending will go towards some of that, which leads me to believe that Book will be handed the keys once Paul is gone.

Thoughts?

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Split T
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Split T »

Bucktastic365 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:37 pm
Can I ask an off-topic question that has been lingering in my mind?

What would the hypothetical limit be to a line-up of: Booker, Shamet/other, Bridges, Johnson, and Ayton be?

I'm futurising, but based on money I'm thinking this is the general direction we are headed.
Booker, maxed. Ayton, maxed. Rumor is Bridges 100+. We still need to keep Cam some way.
Paul's contact ending will go towards some of that, which leads me to believe that Book will be handed the keys once Paul is gone.

Thoughts?
Ya I’m slightly worried about that. One of those 3(Ayton, Bridges, Cam) would need to make a big leap into a guy that can be counted on to create offense. I guess I would also include Cam Payne too.

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Drewsprocket
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Drewsprocket »

Split T wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:30 pm
Bucktastic365 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:37 pm
Can I ask an off-topic question that has been lingering in my mind?

What would the hypothetical limit be to a line-up of: Booker, Shamet/other, Bridges, Johnson, and Ayton be?

I'm futurising, but based on money I'm thinking this is the general direction we are headed.
Booker, maxed. Ayton, maxed. Rumor is Bridges 100+. We still need to keep Cam some way.
Paul's contact ending will go towards some of that, which leads me to believe that Book will be handed the keys once Paul is gone.

Thoughts?
Ya I’m slightly worried about that. One of those 3(Ayton, Bridges, Cam) would need to make a big leap into a guy that can be counted on to create offense. I guess I would also include Cam Payne too.
Not to be polly annish but It’ll workout great. We’re not gonna be the Blazers here. By all appearances the core young suns are a balanced mix of talent (and healthy af) that won’t need any other stars on big deals. I think the circumstances alter so much so that our math right now doesn’t matter. It’ll be about attraction and deals JJ can make to facilitate it. Best case scenario is we replace CP3 down the road with a very good PG who wants to facilitate for Book, Bridges, Cam Johnson, and Ayton. Even if Cam Johnson avgs 14ppg this season he wont need a 100 + contract. It’ll work out.
With Bridges at 100+, Book on his Max, Ayton on his max, what will that leave Cam Johnson? It’s not he will be a 20+ mill player yet.

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Split T
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Split T »

Drewsprocket wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:18 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:30 pm
Bucktastic365 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:37 pm
Can I ask an off-topic question that has been lingering in my mind?

What would the hypothetical limit be to a line-up of: Booker, Shamet/other, Bridges, Johnson, and Ayton be?

I'm futurising, but based on money I'm thinking this is the general direction we are headed.
Booker, maxed. Ayton, maxed. Rumor is Bridges 100+. We still need to keep Cam some way.
Paul's contact ending will go towards some of that, which leads me to believe that Book will be handed the keys once Paul is gone.

Thoughts?
Ya I’m slightly worried about that. One of those 3(Ayton, Bridges, Cam) would need to make a big leap into a guy that can be counted on to create offense. I guess I would also include Cam Payne too.
Not to be polly annish but It’ll workout great. We’re not gonna be the Blazers here. By all appearances the core young suns are a balanced mix of talent (and healthy af) that won’t need any other stars on big deals. I think the circumstances alter so much so that our math right now doesn’t matter. It’ll be about attraction and deals JJ can make to facilitate it. Best case scenario is we replace CP3 down the road with a very good PG who wants to facilitate for Book, Bridges, Cam Johnson, and Ayton. Even if Cam Johnson avgs 14ppg this season he wont need a 100 + contract. It’ll work out.
With Bridges at 100+, Book on his Max, Ayton on his max, what will that leave Cam Johnson? It’s not he will be a 20+ mill player yet.
I think Duncan Robinson’s contract will be a good barometer for Cam’s extension. Duncan has shown to be a more versatile and reliable shooter than Cam, but Cam is better defensively.

As for your main point, I do think it’s possible we don’t need another star on ball creator. We will need someone or multiple someone’s to take pressure or Booker having to do everything, but that could be a guy like Cam Payne. Look at Reggie Jackson this last year. Or even what a guy like Ricky Rubio did for us. We should be a good team for years to come if we don’t screw it up.

I do think we will need more if we want to be a title contender post CP3. A Payne/Booker/Bridges/Johnson/Ayton lineup doesn’t win a title without a big jump by one of those guys into being an All-NBA guy.

Still, as a good team with championship experience that has great respectable leaders(Monty, JJ, Booker) in a favorable market, we shouldn’t have issues adding valuable pieces to our roster. I’m pretty excited about the next decade of Suns basketball.

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pickle
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by pickle »

I think CP3 is ranked ahead of Booker because he is a little bit more versatile. He can fit into almost any situation, while Booker, given his average-at-best defense, needs a certain type of team set up around him to be effective.

I hope Cam Payne can continue to develop into more of a floor general, or become more savvy on the defensive end. Paul is never one that can block or even effectively defend a bigger jump shooter with his length, but his ability to play the passing lanes makes him a net positive on that end. Some growth from CP15 in either, or ideally, both of those areas would make this a relatively complete team even when Paul hangs it up.

I have high hopes for Cam Johnson. He may never become a great break it down playmaker, but he has shown the bball IQ to leverage his outside shot to create driving lanes, and he's capable of making quick passes.

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In2ition
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by In2ition »

Split T wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:20 pm
I think Duncan Robinson’s contract will be a good barometer for Cam’s extension. Duncan has shown to be a more versatile and reliable shooter than Cam, but Cam is better defensively.

As for your main point, I do think it’s possible we don’t need another star on ball creator. We will need someone or multiple someone’s to take pressure or Booker having to do everything, but that could be a guy like Cam Payne. Look at Reggie Jackson this last year. Or even what a guy like Ricky Rubio did for us. We should be a good team for years to come if we don’t screw it up.

I do think we will need more if we want to be a title contender post CP3. A Payne/Booker/Bridges/Johnson/Ayton lineup doesn’t win a title without a big jump by one of those guys into being an All-NBA guy.

Still, as a good team with championship experience that has great respectable leaders(Monty, JJ, Booker) in a favorable market, we shouldn’t have issues adding valuable pieces to our roster. I’m pretty excited about the next decade of Suns basketball.
I think you're right about Duncan's contract for Cam. What do you mean when you say, "Duncan has shown to be a more versatile and reliable shooter than Cam..."?
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
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Split T
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Split T »

Duncan is a career 42% 3pt shooter and Cam is at 37%. Duncan also takes and makes them at a higher volume. Honestly we don’t see Cam running off screens to take 3s very often. He’s mostly just a catch and shoot guy.

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bajanguy008
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by bajanguy008 »

Sup everyone
Hope all is well ✌️👍

My "off-season" is soon wrapping up lol, glad to know Media Day n Training Camp around the corner

https://arizonasports.com/story/2825824 ... ing-style/
SUNS Fan from the Land of Sun, Sea and Sand ;)

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In2ition
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

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Split T wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:48 am
Duncan is a career 42% 3pt shooter and Cam is at 37%. Duncan also takes and makes them at a higher volume. Honestly we don’t see Cam running off screens to take 3s very often. He’s mostly just a catch and shoot guy.
He did shoot twice as many 3s in the playoffs last yr when the Heat went to the Finals vs. what Cam did this yr., but his 3pt %s(.397) were worse than Cam's(.446).
Duncan uses both screens and spot up, but he only took a total of 20 2 pt shots out of his 176 attempts in those playoffs. Do you remember him taking any shots off the dribble or any step backs?
Cam took 36 2s out of 110 attempts in the playoffs. I've seen him come off screens, spot up, take shots off the dribble, and take step back 3s.

I guess I'm not seeing this versatility of his shooting that you are describing or I have a different idea of what versatile shooting is.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass

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Split T
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Split T »

In2ition wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:08 am
Split T wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:48 am
Duncan is a career 42% 3pt shooter and Cam is at 37%. Duncan also takes and makes them at a higher volume. Honestly we don’t see Cam running off screens to take 3s very often. He’s mostly just a catch and shoot guy.
He did shoot twice as many 3s in the playoffs last yr when the Heat went to the Finals vs. what Cam did this yr., but his 3pt %s(.397) were worse than Cam's(.446).
Duncan uses both screens and spot up, but he only took a total of 20 2 pt shots out of his 176 attempts in those playoffs. Do you remember him taking any shots off the dribble or any step backs?
Cam took 36 2s out of 110 attempts in the playoffs. I've seen him come off screens, spot up, take shots off the dribble, and take step back 3s.

I guess I'm not seeing this versatility of his shooting that you are describing or I have a different idea of what versatile shooting is.
I’m just strictly talking 3s…yes Cam does a little more pull up shooting from midrange and can attack close outs more than Duncan. I just don’t rarely see us use Cam like the Heat use Duncan. We rarely run Cam off screens. I’ll see if I can find some data, but I’d guess a large majority of Cam’s 3 pt attempts are catch and shoot. He has occasionally run off screens, pulled up, or hit step backs, but it’s quite rare.

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In2ition
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by In2ition »

Split T wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:37 am
In2ition wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:08 am
Split T wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:48 am
Duncan is a career 42% 3pt shooter and Cam is at 37%. Duncan also takes and makes them at a higher volume. Honestly we don’t see Cam running off screens to take 3s very often. He’s mostly just a catch and shoot guy.
He did shoot twice as many 3s in the playoffs last yr when the Heat went to the Finals vs. what Cam did this yr., but his 3pt %s(.397) were worse than Cam's(.446).
Duncan uses both screens and spot up, but he only took a total of 20 2 pt shots out of his 176 attempts in those playoffs. Do you remember him taking any shots off the dribble or any step backs?
Cam took 36 2s out of 110 attempts in the playoffs. I've seen him come off screens, spot up, take shots off the dribble, and take step back 3s.

I guess I'm not seeing this versatility of his shooting that you are describing or I have a different idea of what versatile shooting is.
I’m just strictly talking 3s…yes Cam does a little more pull up shooting from midrange and can attack close outs more than Duncan. I just don’t rarely see us use Cam like the Heat use Duncan. We rarely run Cam off screens. I’ll see if I can find some data, but I’d guess a large majority of Cam’s 3 pt attempts are catch and shoot. He has occasionally run off screens, pulled up, or hit step backs, but it’s quite rare.
I think that's just due to the offense that the Suns run vs the the offense that the Heat run. Duncan started all 21 games and played 7.5 minutes per game more, whereas Cam never did start. I could argue that if Cam and Duncan switched spots that Cam's role on the Heat would include an increased volume of shots along with more shots off screens and more minutes. I'm not sure that we would see Duncan get as many shots as he does on the Heat, nor would I think he would show much of an off the bounce game or attacking the close out type game.
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Split T
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Split T »

You may be right, I would still like to see Cam shoot over 40% from 3 consistently. He was awesome in the post season, but was pretty meh during the regular season…though I guess that’s better than the other way around.

I would also love to see us use cam more like Duncan is used. We added Shamet as well. Both guys could be dangerous coming off screens and could add another wrinkle to our offense.

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pickle
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by pickle »

I think Cam and Duncan are different types of shooters. Cam is much more of a spot up shooter with the occasional screen play run for him whereas Duncan is used primarily to space the floor and is constantly in motion. He’s more in the Korver/Redick vein while Cam is a bit more traditional as a shooter/offensive asset. One might say Duncan is able to fire off more types of threes and possibly hits the tougher ones with more confidence and accuracy, and in that sense he is more versatile and offers more gravity.

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Split T
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Split T »

pickle wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:21 am
I think Cam and Duncan are different types of shooters. Cam is much more of a spot up shooter with the occasional screen play run for him whereas Duncan is used primarily to space the floor and is constantly in motion. He’s more in the Korver/Redick vein while Cam is a bit more traditional as a shooter/offensive asset. One might say Duncan is able to fire off more types of threes and possibly hits the tougher ones with more confidence and accuracy, and in that sense he is more versatile and offers more gravity.
Ya this is how I see it. Though it’s possible Cam is capable of playing more like Duncan and we just don’t use him that way.

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