I don't think Lebron is the GOAT. But a couple of clips of him flopping don't make a very compelling argument. To me it's much more about his repeatedly choking in the Finals and going, what is it, 4/10 when MJ would absolutely never let 6 (SIX!) titles slip through his fingers like that.
I never understand this argument…so Jordan losing in the 1st round is better than LeBron dragging shitty teams to the Finals?
LeBron lost 1 title be should’ve won(the 2011 finals vs Dallas). The other 5 he lost his team was pretty outmatched.
I don't think Lebron is the GOAT. But a couple of clips of him flopping don't make a very compelling argument. To me it's much more about his repeatedly choking in the Finals and going, what is it, 4/10 when MJ would absolutely never let 6 (SIX!) titles slip through his fingers like that.
I never understand this argument…so Jordan losing in the 1st round is better than LeBron dragging shitty teams to the Finals?
LeBron lost 1 title be should’ve won(the 2011 finals vs Dallas). The other 5 he lost his team was pretty outmatched.
And if Jordan skips college(which wasn’t allowed at the time) and doesn’t retire prematurely twice he wins 8 titles in a row(at least) and scores 45,000 points(I did the math) in his career. Jordan is the superior player.
LBJ's the goat. Jordan's the greatest winner in the modern era, but LBJ's complete body of work is unmatched. He was on the cover of SI as a HS Junior, his HS games were televised, he's lived up to every expectation and than some. And MJ wouldn't have won 8 straight titles. He just wouldn't have.
I don’t know why people forget Jordan played in ‘95 and lost in the 2nd round to Orlando
Nobody is forgetting. He only played 17 games in the regular season that year and averaged under 27 points a game. He wasn’t the same guy for those game as he wasn’t in basketball shape. The next year the Bulls were 72-10 and he averaged over 30 again, like the 7 seasons prior to the retirement.
And I don’t remember LeBron winning the scoring title and DPOY in the same season.
I don’t know why people forget Jordan played in ‘95 and lost in the 2nd round to Orlando
Nobody is forgetting. He only played 17 games in the regular season that year and averaged under 27 points a game. He wasn’t the same guy for those game as he wasn’t in basketball shape. The next year the Bulls were 72-10 and he averaged over 30 again, like the 7 seasons prior to the retirement.
And I don’t remember LeBron winning the scoring title and DPOY in the same season.
Excuses, excuses…whose fault was it that he wasn’t in basketball shape? His own…Nobody gets the benefit of the doubt more than Jordan. He doesn’t need it, he was unreal in the stuff he actually did do. There’s no reason to make stuff up.
And I can come up with countless things LeBron did that Jordan never did. I can come up with things Steve Nash did that Jordan never did…
And I’m not even saying LeBron is better than Jordan. I don’t think there’s a clear answer. But if I’m making an argument for Jordan I’d stick to 6 titles vs 4. I’d stick to MVP’s. The fact that he was basically unbeatable by his peers once he reached his peak.
I just got done watching the last game of the 1972 Finals where Wilt scored 24 points, 24 rebounds, 4 assists, at least 8 blocks (according to the announcers) to finish as MVP of the series. This was the post-knee surgery Wilt who led the team to the best record in league history to that point (69-13) and a 33-game winning streak.
Keep in mind that, at age 33, Wilt was averaging 32.2 points and 20.6 points (shooting 57%) in 1969-70 before that injury.
In other words, the GOAT discussion isn't cut & dried - sure, he won "only" two championships, but NOBODY dominated the game like Chamberlain did from 1959 to 1969 (34.4 points, 24.3 rebounds, who-knows-how-many blocks a game).
I would put Chamberlain, Jordan, Abdul-Jabbar and James in some order 1-4. Russell, Bird and Magic right on their heels. Then you have guys like Robertson, Duncan, Olajuwon, M.Malone and O'Neal rounding out the top dozen. Then the group of Kobe, West, K.Malone, Erving, Barkley, Baylor, Robinson, Mikan, Paul, Stockton, Garnett and Durant in some order for the next dozen after that.
YMMV.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
Championships are important, but they're so overrated when measuring individual greatness. Bill Russell was the greatest winner in basketball history, But I don't think many people see him as the greatest ever.
But hell, we can't even reach a concensus regarding what the Most Valuable Player award should be for, so why should the GOAT be any different?
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
If there was a straightforward consensus on what was most important for these discussions, then we wouldn’t have much of a discussion.
I have no clue how to evaluate the pre-merger guys. Wilt’s stats make no sense when you see them in a box score, but the game was also vastly different back then. The crazy rebounding numbers aren’t as impressive once you realize how quickly teams played and how poorly players shot. Combine that with how many minutes Wilt played and you realize Wilt wasn’t getting a higher percentage of rebounds than the best rebounders of today. Still elite, but not video game numbers. He wouldn’t average 20+ rebounds today.
I don’t know the answer to why Russell always beat Wilt. I think my biggest insight into that came from the book of basketball and that’s a very biased take as it’s written by Celtics homer Bill Simmons. He paints Wilt as a stat hunter who didn’t know how to win. Cared more about individual accomplishments, whereas Russell was the ultimate winner.
I really have no clue though so I generally leave those guys out if I’m trying to rank the all-time guys. My top 10 is:
Jordan and LeBron in the top tier
Kareem and Magic next.
Then Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, KD, and Kobe rounding out the top 10. Hakeem is right there too…with Giannis and Jokic knocking on the door.
LBJ's the goat. Jordan's the greatest winner in the modern era, but LBJ's complete body of work is unmatched. He was on the cover of SI as a HS Junior, his HS games were televised, he's lived up to every expectation and than some. And MJ wouldn't have won 8 straight titles. He just wouldn't have.
I dunno, I kind of like his chances against the Rockets, especially the '95 Rockets. With his narcissistic drive to compete, I don't see him burning out either
Sorry, I just think hypotheticals are dumb. You can make whatever conclusions you want.
What if Kyrie doesn’t get hurt in 2015? Give LeBron another one.
People just want to believe in the legend of MJ..and it’s not like MJ was bad in ‘95. He had better numbers in those playoffs than he did in ‘96. His team just wasn’t as good and the Magic were better.
I don't need any hypotheticals. MJ was 6/6. He ran the table during his prime. And his '90s Bulls teams were pretty good but not really exceptional down the roster. He never had good PG help, they rarely had an impressive center. He had Scottie, who's an all-timer, and several nice role players, but '94 and '95 showed that the Bulls weren't really a juggernaut without MJ.
I don't think MJ would have won 8 straight titles if he had not taken his baseball break. He came back in '95 in a rush and wasn't in peak basketball shape. But if he'd played nonstop through the '90s his body wouldn't have had time to rest, so he may have gotten burnt out or injured.
My point is just that if you got that close to the title, got all the way to the Finals, with MJ, he would get you across the finish line. He would never let some other team take 6 titles from him. Would not happen. Lebron is not mentally tough enough to will a team to a title that wasn't already the better / favored team to win the Finals series.
You say you don’t need hypotheticals but then you used them.
My question, what team did Jordan beat that was better than the ‘16 Warriors? LeBron lost twice to the KD Warriors, you going to hold that against him? LeBron took a terrible Cavs team to the finals as a 22-year old…Jordan got swept by the Celtics in round 1 as a 22-year old. I don’t know why you’re ignoring all the years Jordan failed to make the playoffs. There’s no world where losing the Finals is worse than losing in round 1.
Congrats to the Bucks for losing in round 1, better than losing to the Nuggets in the finals.
I don't think Lebron is the GOAT. But a couple of clips of him flopping don't make a very compelling argument. To me it's much more about his repeatedly choking in the Finals and going, what is it, 4/10 when MJ would absolutely never let 6 (SIX!) titles slip through his fingers like that.
I hate that argument.
In 1992-93, the Bulls won 57 games and a championship. Then Jordan retired and was replaced with Pete Myers, and the team won 55 games and made a damn good run at another championship. What happened to LeBron’s teams when he left?
Stop acting like Jordan won all those rings by himself.
Lebron’s had the best career, Jordan was the greatest player.
Even at his peak, you never feared Lebron. Since I’ve been watching basketball there have been 3 players that struck fear into the opponents hearts. MJ, Prime Shaq and Kobe.
Lebron has always been beatable. Yes, he has a better all around game, but maybe that is to compensate for what he couldn’t do.
