Suns Trade For Beal!

[JeremyG]

Suns playoff winning percentage with a starting point guard of:

Chris Paul: .575

Cam Payne: .667

[BKinSJC]

Positions matter more for defense imo. Traditionally your pg was your primary initiator and your point of attack defender. Everyone just kinda cross-matched with their counterpart on the other team, but that isn’t really the case anymore.

Like BK said, LeBron was almost always the primary initiator on his teams. He was rarely considered a pg though because he didn’t defend point of attack.

I’m fairly certain Booker will be the primary initiator this year with Beal and KD also taking turns doing that. Let’s say 40% Book and 25% each for Beal and KD with Payne(or Goodwin)probably the other 10%. I doubt that Booker spends 40% of the time defending point of attack though.

So what position is he? He’s a primary initiator on offense and he’ll defend secondary initiators on defense.

This is all really well put, thank you. And, to bring it back around to what we've been talking about: what particular role would Payne bring to the starters that someone else couldn't do better? If the decision is to go bigger with the final starter then it'll be someone like KBD. If Vogel wants the best available point-of-attack guy to take some of that pressure off Booker and Beal, then it's probably Okogie, and you try to minimize the potential offensive issues. If he wants someone who can provide elite spacing on offense and strength and switchability on defense, then maybe it's Gordon.

Really, other than "he can be the first guy to dribble the ball in offensive sets," what do those of you who are suggesting Payne with the starters see him providing?

[Drewsprocket]

Suns playoff winning percentage with a starting point guard of:

Chris Paul: .575

Cam Payne: .667

There are 96 minutes in the backcourt per game. You have Beal and Book and Eric Gordon. How many minutes do you think Payne will play? And you think he will be starting?
Edit:
payne has 6 playoff starts
Chris Paul has had 149 starts.
If this was a stats class what might be the criticism to your above post?

[JeremyG]

Suns playoff winning percentage with a starting point guard of:

Chris Paul: .575

Cam Payne: .667

There are 96 minutes in the backcourt per game. You have Beal and Book and Eric Gordon. How many minutes do you think Payne will play? And you think he will be starting?
Edit:
payne has 6 playoff starts
Chris Paul has had 149 starts.
If this was a stats class what might be the criticism to your above post?

You take these things so seriously.

I simply threw out an interesting stat. One that shows that starting him at PG--even in the playoffs--is not some terrible thing. And Chris Paul does not have 149 playoff starts for the Suns. If you want to more accurately compare, then let's compare their records in those two series in which Payne started games:

Payne: 4-2 (.667)

Paul: 2-4 (.333)

There you go. Exact same number of starts.

[Split T]

Let’s not do this. No one thinks Payne was better than CP3. Yes he filled in admirably when CP3 was out with Covid and Devin Booker won us two games by being unreal(and Payne happened to be starting) against Denver. I’ll point out we were winning game 2 when Paul went out and lost that lead when Payne took over.

I’m not banking on any of that going forward. We have enough ball handling and playmaking in our starting lineup that I don’t feel like we need more. What else does Payne offer? Whoever that 5th starter is will spend most of their time off ball. What we need is someone who can defend(probably point of attack, but maybe more of a big wing defender), shoot open catch and shoot 3s, and be able to keep the ball moving/attack closeouts when the ball swings to them. I’d also add be able to run in transition.

Payne isn’t a bad option because he does fight on defense and I would rather have him chase around the smaller, quicker lead ball handlers(Dame, Fox, Curry, Ja, etc) than Beal or Booker, but he is small and doesn’t help against say LeBron, Luka, Tatum, Harden. He is a capable shooter, so I’m not too worried about him being off ball a lot and I do trust that he can attack a closeout and make the right pass.

However, we do have better shooters and better defenders(especially bigger defenders) and I think those 2 are more important skills for the 5th guy. Leads me to having KBD or Okogie ahead of him(especially if the 39% shooting from 3 for KBD is real and if Okogie can just be 34-36%).

I think Payne starting if Book or Beal is out is more likely and more helpful.

[Shabazz]

Booker and Beal are both better "point guards" than Payne. The only reason people think otherwise is because Payne is smaller and faster.

He's also worse at D than both, so he doesn't solve the "who guards Steph" issue, but would create the "Book guards Paul George" issue.

Sorry, but I most definitely don't "think otherwise because Payne is smaller and faster." He is a natural point guard with point guard skills and mindset, which is different than an SG that plays PG part time. Blitzing Point Book was fairly successful last season. I think Point Book can still work, and I'm fine with it. However, I'd like to see how Payne does first. Even if it's just him bringing the ball up the court to pass it to Book, Beal or Durant.

I love how down you are on Cam Payne.

He is better than you give him credit for. True, he has peaks and valleys, but I think you are evaluating him solely based on when he is at his worst.

I agree with Inf here. Seems to me that he is being judged at his worst. He WAS looking much better early last season before he got hurt. I saw him going to his right hand quite a bit. He still too often gets tunnel vision, puts his head down, and drives into a crowd or premier shot-blocker when he shouldn't. There are lots of examples of championship teams that had marginal point guards.

His natural position is point guard, but his archetype is "scoring point guard." As others have said he's not a "game manager." He's got strengths - he can push the pace, get into the paint (and from there kick it out to the perimeter) and hit shots when he's on. But his weaknesses really hurt. He's shaky on defense (foul prone and gambles a ton) and his decision making can be really suspect. Put another way, he's just straight up unreliable.

Yes, he had a good stretch last season and yes, other teams have won with mediocre starting PGs (others have already explained how this is a bad argument). If we're trying to maximize the Suns and not Cam Payne, I think starting him would not be prudent. I also think, despite what a poster here said earlier, that he never really developed any chemistry with DA. He's not a great pick-and-roll PG without a McGee-level lob threat. He's better and running pick and pops, like with Saric.

Also, Book has become really, really good at navigating those blitzes even with some poor spacing around him. Good luck sending them with Beal and KD on the floor.

I do understand the argument of not wanting to wear Book out, but I think he will share primary initiator responsibility with BB and KD.

[bajanguy008]

There are two aspects of this clip
The iso ability and shot creation but I still hope our offense isn't stagnant despite the Trio skillset
Secondly I think his playmaking is slept on



With all the posts about our offense in multiple threads
I realize that nobody's been mentioning Kevin Young anymore at all as the great pairing with Vogel.....
Not expecting him to dial up some legit stuff with our weapons ?

[Mori Chu]

I do think our offense is going to be nasty. I wouldn't be surprised if multiple members of our Big 3 miss some time to injury, so that will give minutes and opportunities to other guys on the roster.

[ShelC]

Been wondering if Vogel is more of a proponent of resting guys here and there or strategically holding them out on B2B or against lesser opponents. Thought we could've done a better job of that under Monty especially over the past two seasons.

[Carno]

His natural position is point guard, but his archetype is "scoring point guard." As others have said he's not a "game manager." He's got strengths - he can push the pace, get into the paint (and from there kick it out to the perimeter) and hit shots when he's on. But his weaknesses really hurt. He's shaky on defense (foul prone and gambles a ton) and his decision making can be really suspect.

These are reasonable points, and it's his strengths that I like. However, you are overstating his weaknesses. I disagree that he is not a game manager. He does run the offense. Albeit he's no Chris Paul. I do not believe that Booker / Beal / Durant are better "point guards" in the true sense of that position (regardless of the archetype).

Put another way, he's just straight up unreliable.

Oh come on.

Also, Book has become really, really good at navigating those blitzes even with some poor spacing around him. Good luck sending them with Beal and KD on the floor.

I disagree that book has become "really, really good" at navigating blitzes. He has improved, but it is still a glaring weakness in his game, imo. He struggles to beat it off the dribble like most "point guards" can. He's improved on recognizing it and passing out sooner, but that marginalizes his impact. Having Beal and Durant as outlets helps, but it still is easy to take the ball out of Books hands.

I do understand the argument of not wanting to wear Book out, but I think he will share primary initiator responsibility with BB and KD.

Its wearing out Book that is really the primary reason for considering starting Payne. I'm less concerned about offense than I am about defense. I don't like Book covering point guards full time.

If this wasn't clear before, I'm not against the Book, Beal, Durant, Ayton + Watanabe/Bates-Diop lineup. It's a valid strategy, and one I'd like to see. Where we differ, I think, is that I'd like to see how starting Payne works out before defaulting to that lineup. It may not work out, but It shouldn't be discounted without giving it a chance.

[INFORMER]

I'm not down on Cam, but I think it makes since to move him and Wainright to open up a roster spot and maybe add another second round pick.

For example:

• Payne/Wainright to Detroit for Killian Hayes/2nd round pick

• Payne/Wainright to Cleveland for Ricky Rubio/2nd round pick

• Payne to New Orleans for Kira Lewis/2nd round pick

[SunsSince92]

I'm not down on Cam, but I think it makes since to move him and Wainright to open up a roster spot and maybe add another second round pick.

For example:

• Payne/Wainright to Detroit for Killian Hayes/2nd round pick

• Payne/Wainright to Cleveland for Ricky Rubio/2nd round pick

• Payne to New Orleans for Kira Lewis/2nd round pick

Rubio would be perfect.

[JeremyG]

Been wondering if Vogel is more of a proponent of resting guys here and there or strategically holding them out on B2B or against lesser opponents. Thought we could've done a better job of that under Monty especially over the past two seasons.

Monty actually mocked the idea of “load management.” He said that it sounds like a trucking company in Texas, not a basketball term. And CP3 hated the idea as well. So hopefully things will be different now.

[Shabazz]

His natural position is point guard, but his archetype is "scoring point guard." As others have said he's not a "game manager." He's got strengths - he can push the pace, get into the paint (and from there kick it out to the perimeter) and hit shots when he's on. But his weaknesses really hurt. He's shaky on defense (foul prone and gambles a ton) and his decision making can be really suspect.

These are reasonable points, and it's his strengths that I like. However, you are overstating his weaknesses. I disagree that he is not a game manager. He does run the offense. Albeit he's no Chris Paul. I do not believe that Booker / Beal / Durant are better "point guards" in the true sense of that position (regardless of the archetype).

Put another way, he's just straight up unreliable.

Oh come on.

Also, Book has become really, really good at navigating those blitzes even with some poor spacing around him. Good luck sending them with Beal and KD on the floor.

I disagree that book has become "really, really good" at navigating blitzes. He has improved, but it is still a glaring weakness in his game, imo. He struggles to beat it off the dribble like most "point guards" can. He's improved on recognizing it and passing out sooner, but that marginalizes his impact. Having Beal and Durant as outlets helps, but it still is easy to take the ball out of Books hands.

I do understand the argument of not wanting to wear Book out, but I think he will share primary initiator responsibility with BB and KD.

Its wearing out Book that is really the primary reason for considering starting Payne. I'm less concerned about offense than I am about defense. I don't like Book covering point guards full time.

If this wasn't clear before, I'm not against the Book, Beal, Durant, Ayton + Watanabe/Bates-Diop lineup. It's a valid strategy, and one I'd like to see. Where we differ, I think, is that I'd like to see how starting Payne works out before defaulting to that lineup. It may not work out, but It shouldn't be discounted without giving it a chance.

Good stuff, Carno. Not sure we’ll see eye to eye on this but I appreciate the argument.

[Shabazz]

I'm not down on Cam, but I think it makes since to move him and Wainright to open up a roster spot and maybe add another second round pick.

For example:

• Payne/Wainright to Detroit for Killian Hayes/2nd round pick

• Payne/Wainright to Cleveland for Ricky Rubio/2nd round pick

• Payne to New Orleans for Kira Lewis/2nd round pick

Rubio would be perfect.

Very good chance he’s totally washed. He doesn’t seem to have recovered from his late-career ACL injury. He was brutal last season.

[Shabazz]

I'm not down on Cam, but I think it makes since to move him and Wainright to open up a roster spot and maybe add another second round pick.

For example:

• Payne/Wainright to Detroit for Killian Hayes/2nd round pick

• Payne/Wainright to Cleveland for Ricky Rubio/2nd round pick

• Payne to New Orleans for Kira Lewis/2nd round pick

I’d love the Detroit trade. Killian’s somewhat redundant in Detroit, but he took a big step last season. I think he has more value than Payne and in line for a bigger role this season.

New Orleans is desperate to cut costs because they’re in the tax and I don’t think they’d take on additional salary. If we can ease their tax burden in a trade, we can definitely extract some picks.

[Mori Chu]

I'm not down on Cam, but I think it makes since to move him and Wainright to open up a roster spot and maybe add another second round pick.

For example:

[list]Payne/Wainright to Detroit for Killian Hayes/2nd round pick[/list]
[list]Payne/Wainright to Cleveland for Ricky Rubio/2nd round pick[/list]
[list]Payne to New Orleans for Kira Lewis/2nd round pick[/list]

^ How I read this post

[Superbone]

There are two aspects of this clip
The iso ability and shot creation but I still hope our offense isn't stagnant despite the Trio skillset
Secondly I think his playmaking is slept on

With all the posts about our offense in multiple threads
I realize that nobody's been mentioning Kevin Young anymore at all as the great pairing with Vogel.....
Not expecting him to dial up some legit stuff with our weapons ?

Young will have an incredible arsenal to work with. Let's hope he is up to the task. I think he still has to prove himself. Hopefully, he and Vogel will be a match made in heaven. Can't wait to see!

[Superbone]

Been wondering if Vogel is more of a proponent of resting guys here and there or strategically holding them out on B2B or against lesser opponents. Thought we could've done a better job of that under Monty especially over the past two seasons.

That's a good question. Pretty sure he held out LeBron and AD liberally if I remember right. It would be good to go back to his Indiana teams and see how he handled "load management." Anybody recall?

[Superbone]

I'm not down on Cam, but I think it makes since to move him and Wainright to open up a roster spot and maybe add another second round pick.

For example:

• Payne/Wainright to Detroit for Killian Hayes/2nd round pick

• Payne/Wainright to Cleveland for Ricky Rubio/2nd round pick

• Payne to New Orleans for Kira Lewis/2nd round pick

Rubio would be IS perfect.

Fixed that for Marty.