Reliant isn’t the right word. It’s just weird to see him being the only player who is clearly a pg(and only a pg) on the roster. The team could play Booker/Beal 36 minutes each and give Gordon all 24 of the remaining guard minutes pretty easily and only ever have those 3 play in the backcourt. Point is we don’t actually need Payne at all
Yeah, reliant is the wrong word but I guess the point I was making is that Payne is the only true PG we have on the roster which is quite the comedown for a franchise that has had Kidd, Nash, Marbury, Johnson, Paul etc.
As you say the other 3 can absolutely play all of the minutes but none of them are really playmakers in the traditional sense.
Booker and Beal are both better "point guards" than Payne. The only reason people think otherwise is because Payne is smaller and faster.
He's also worse at D than both, so he doesn't solve the "who guards Steph" issue, but would create the "Book guards Paul George" issue.
I love how down you are on Cam Payne.
He is better than you give him credit for. True, he has peaks and valleys, but I think you are evaluating him solely based on when he is at his worst.
He doesn't play at a consistently high level though. He'll have the odd stellar performance but, for the most part, he is either average or bad. For a team with championship aspirations that's simply not enough.
I don’t understand the Payne love. He’s not some glue factor that will make Beal and KD and Book gel better. Those three guys are tremendous offensive basketball minds who get their own and create secondary. Payne can barely pass the ball into the post. He’s a scoring pg who is sort of a rally guy. I’m sure there will be a system that facilitates the offense just fine. We will probably be more of a phil jackson or coach pop type of offense that doesn’t rely on one playmaker. Vogel will need to focus a lot on a defense that also creates scoring opportunities and payne is not that dude.
I know this is a minority opinion, but I think Payne starts. He is the only natural point guard in the rotation, and he can both pressure the rim and play off the ball.
I think we can all agree that Payne is not a starter-level NBA PG. Or at least he shouldn't be on a team with title aspirations.
Take a look at Vogel's starting PGs on the Lakers.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
I would prefer a bigger lineup myself with a PF as the 5th starter (I wouldn't even mind signing Christian Wood to start at PF). But I think Vogel will go with Payne, at least to begin with, and I don't hate the idea. We've had success--even playoff success--with Payne as our starting PG before. I believe we are 4-2 with him as our starting PG in the playoffs? I do feel like he plays better as a starter.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
I’m having a hard time seeing why Payne should even be in the rotation given the options we have, let alone starting and playing 24 mpg.
I don’t see where Payne fits. We don’t need his scoring in the backcourt anymore. I think he’s mid season trade bait or injury insurance. Here’s a vague breakdown of minutes if we’re healthy and playing a meaningful game. Okogie and Goodwin Will provide perimeter defense. In the regular season we will see a some run from the 10-12 guys. I think the minutes at the 4 spot will be interesting.
Ayton 29 Eubanks 19
Bates-Diop 24 Watanube 24
KD 30 Okogie 18
Book 32 Gordon 16
Beal 32 Gordon 8 / Goodwin 8
If you want to bet that Vogel will play Ayton a career low in minutes, I will take that bet for sure.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
Booker and Beal are both better "point guards" than Payne. The only reason people think otherwise is because Payne is smaller and faster.
He's also worse at D than both, so he doesn't solve the "who guards Steph" issue, but would create the "Book guards Paul George" issue.
Sorry, but I most definitely don't "think otherwise because Payne is smaller and faster." He is a natural point guard with point guard skills and mindset, which is different than an SG that plays PG part time. Blitzing Point Book was fairly successful last season. I think Point Book can still work, and I'm fine with it. However, I'd like to see how Payne does first. Even if it's just him bringing the ball up the court to pass it to Book, Beal or Durant.
He is better than you give him credit for. True, he has peaks and valleys, but I think you are evaluating him solely based on when he is at his worst.
I agree with Inf here. Seems to me that he is being judged at his worst. He WAS looking much better early last season before he got hurt. I saw him going to his right hand quite a bit. He still too often gets tunnel vision, puts his head down, and drives into a crowd or premier shot-blocker when he shouldn't. There are lots of examples of championship teams that had marginal point guards.
It seems to me the writing was on the wall last year after the KD trade. CP3 had to change his game to become a spot up shooter or basically a 2 guard to let Booker and KD handle the ball. It wasn’t because he was hurt or old. They fundamentally changed their game style and CP3 was the guy who had to adapt. CP3 is a PG’s PG meaning his game depends on him handling the ball and distributing. Basically he was now the wrong guy for this new offense.
Now that CP3 is gone they went out and got the right guy in Beal that fits their new game. At least that’s the way I see it. In this scenario I don’t see Payne starting. He’s CP3 light with more speed. I see Payne and Gordon as 1 & 2 coming off the bench.
I’m having a hard time seeing why Payne should even be in the rotation given the options we have, let alone starting and playing 24 mpg.
I don’t see where Payne fits. We don’t need his scoring in the backcourt anymore. I think he’s mid season trade bait or injury insurance. Here’s a vague breakdown of minutes if we’re healthy and playing a meaningful game. Okogie and Goodwin Will provide perimeter defense. In the regular season we will see a some run from the 10-12 guys. I think the minutes at the 4 spot will be interesting.
Ayton 29 Eubanks 19
Bates-Diop 24 Watanube 24
KD 30 Okogie 18
Book 32 Gordon 16
Beal 32 Gordon 8 / Goodwin 8
If you want to bet that Vogel will play Ayton a career low in minutes, I will take that bet for sure.
Past 3 years have been 30, 29, 30. Does this diminish your stan acct? I wouldn’t be shocked if he gets 32 mpg. Depends on how he responds, i fucking hope he does.
I’m having a hard time seeing why Payne should even be in the rotation given the options we have, let alone starting and playing 24 mpg.
I don’t see where Payne fits. We don’t need his scoring in the backcourt anymore. I think he’s mid season trade bait or injury insurance. Here’s a vague breakdown of minutes if we’re healthy and playing a meaningful game. Okogie and Goodwin Will provide perimeter defense. In the regular season we will see a some run from the 10-12 guys. I think the minutes at the 4 spot will be interesting.
Ayton 29 Eubanks 19
Bates-Diop 24 Watanube 24
KD 30 Okogie 18
Book 32 Gordon 16
Beal 32 Gordon 8 / Goodwin 8
If you want to bet that Vogel will play Ayton a career low in minutes, I will take that bet for sure.
Past 3 years have been 30, 29, 30. Does this diminish your stan acct? I wouldn’t be shocked if he gets 32 mpg. Depends on how he responds, i fucking hope he does.
29.5 was his career low under Monty. I can almost guarantee he will get a career high 33-37 mpg under Vogel.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
Booker and Beal are both better "point guards" than Payne. The only reason people think otherwise is because Payne is smaller and faster.
He's also worse at D than both, so he doesn't solve the "who guards Steph" issue, but would create the "Book guards Paul George" issue.
Sorry, but I most definitely don't "think otherwise because Payne is smaller and faster." He is a natural point guard with point guard skills and mindset, which is different than an SG that plays PG part time. Blitzing Point Book was fairly successful last season. I think Point Book can still work, and I'm fine with it. However, I'd like to see how Payne does first. Even if it's just him bringing the ball up the court to pass it to Book, Beal or Durant.
He is better than you give him credit for. True, he has peaks and valleys, but I think you are evaluating him solely based on when he is at his worst.
I agree with Inf here. Seems to me that he is being judged at his worst. He WAS looking much better early last season before he got hurt. I saw him going to his right hand quite a bit. He still too often gets tunnel vision, puts his head down, and drives into a crowd or premier shot-blocker when he shouldn't. There are lots of examples of championship teams that had marginal point guards.
'He still too often gets tunnel vision, puts his head down, and drives into a crowd or premier shot-blocker when he shouldn't.'
Therein lies the problem. I take your point about championship teams that had marginal point guards but I'd argue Payne would have been a 3rd string guard on those teams rather than the starter/primary backup.
Booker and Beal are both better "point guards" than Payne. The only reason people think otherwise is because Payne is smaller and faster.
He's also worse at D than both, so he doesn't solve the "who guards Steph" issue, but would create the "Book guards Paul George" issue.
Sorry, but I most definitely don't "think otherwise because Payne is smaller and faster." He is a natural point guard with point guard skills and mindset, which is different than an SG that plays PG part time. Blitzing Point Book was fairly successful last season. I think Point Book can still work, and I'm fine with it. However, I'd like to see how Payne does first. Even if it's just him bringing the ball up the court to pass it to Book, Beal or Durant.
He is better than you give him credit for. True, he has peaks and valleys, but I think you are evaluating him solely based on when he is at his worst.
I agree with Inf here. Seems to me that he is being judged at his worst. He WAS looking much better early last season before he got hurt. I saw him going to his right hand quite a bit. He still too often gets tunnel vision, puts his head down, and drives into a crowd or premier shot-blocker when he shouldn't. There are lots of examples of championship teams that had marginal point guards.
'He still too often gets tunnel vision, puts his head down, and drives into a crowd or premier shot-blocker when he shouldn't.'
Therein lies the problem. I take your point about championship teams that had marginal point guards but I'd argue Payne would have been a 3rd string guard on those teams rather than the starter/primary backup.
I judge Payne for ghosting us in 2022 postseason- 13 games played, 13 mpg, 4 ppg, 29% fg, 16% 3pt. We needed a 3rd guard.
I know this is a minority opinion, but I think Payne starts. He is the only natural point guard in the rotation, and he can both pressure the rim and play off the ball.
I think we can all agree that Payne is not a starter-level NBA PG. Or at least he shouldn't be on a team with title aspirations.
Take a look at Vogel's starting PGs on the Lakers.
On the championship team, LeBron James was effectively the "starting PG". He led the league at over 10 assists a game and was responsible for creating almost all the offense. The backcourt players with the most starts were KCP and Avery Bradley, both point-of-attack defender types who could also hit an open 3 point shot if somebody else tilted the defense. Alex Caruso was the same kind of player off the bench. The only "true point guard" who got any real time was Rajon Rondo, and he was second on the team in assists at 5 a game playing mostly off the bench; Anthony Davis was third on the team in assists per game.
I think part of the problem with this whole discussion is defining terms. What do people mean by "true PG" and "playmaker"? How are you applying those terms to a guy like Cameron Payne? I think Cam is a "point guard" in the sense that he can bring the ball up the floor, against pressure if necessary, and can read a defense well enough to make reasonable decisions as far as getting a team into an offensive set. But he's not really making high-level decisions that strongly affect a defense to create significant advantages for his team on the offensive end. That's a "true point guard" or "playmaker" to me, and I think Book, KD, Beal, and maybe even Gordon can do that better than Payne does.
I think the optimal solution is Okogie steps up and plays like he did the last 2 months of the regular season. He can defend the pg, offers some ball handling(though not much in the way of halfcourt playmaking. More like he can bring it up the court and run a handoff for one of the big 3), and is the type of scrappy defensive hustle guy Vogel likes who also helps on the boards. Then we can run:
Book/Beal/Okogie/KD/Ayton with
Payne/Gordon/Yuta/KBD/Eubanks off the bench.
Goodwin/Lee/Camara/Metu seem like the deep bench.
I don’t really think Todd/Ish play a role. Honestly I don’t expect either to even be on the team unless it’s in a 2-way slot.
I know this is a minority opinion, but I think Payne starts. He is the only natural point guard in the rotation, and he can both pressure the rim and play off the ball.
I think we can all agree that Payne is not a starter-level NBA PG. Or at least he shouldn't be on a team with title aspirations.
Take a look at Vogel's starting PGs on the Lakers.
On the championship team, LeBron James was effectively the "starting PG". He led the league at over 10 assists a game and was responsible for creating almost all the offense. The backcourt players with the most starts were KCP and Avery Bradley, both point-of-attack defender types who could also hit an open 3 point shot if somebody else tilted the defense. Alex Caruso was the same kind of player off the bench. The only "true point guard" who got any real time was Rajon Rondo, and he was second on the team in assists at 5 a game playing mostly off the bench; Anthony Davis was third on the team in assists per game.
I think part of the problem with this whole discussion is defining terms. What do people mean by "true PG" and "playmaker"? How are you applying those terms to a guy like Cameron Payne? I think Cam is a "point guard" in the sense that he can bring the ball up the floor, against pressure if necessary, and can read a defense well enough to make reasonable decisions as far as getting a team into an offensive set. But he's not really making high-level decisions that strongly affect a defense to create significant advantages for his team on the offensive end. That's a "true point guard" or "playmaker" to me, and I think Book, KD, Beal, and maybe even Gordon can do that better than Payne does.
Agreed. When I made reference to him being a true PG, I meant it in terms of that being his natural position as opposed to him being a Chris Paul / John Stockton type. He's clearly not that and I'd agree Book, KD and Beal can play that role better than him. However in asking them to do that you are pushing them into a role that isn't their primary focus as elite scorers.
Positions matter more for defense imo. Traditionally your pg was your primary initiator and your point of attack defender. Everyone just kinda cross-matched with their counterpart on the other team, but that isn’t really the case anymore.
Like BK said, LeBron was almost always the primary initiator on his teams. He was rarely considered a pg though because he didn’t defend point of attack.
I’m fairly certain Booker will be the primary initiator this year with Beal and KD also taking turns doing that. Let’s say 40% Book and 25% each for Beal and KD with Payne(or Goodwin)probably the other 10%. I doubt that Booker spends 40% of the time defending point of attack though.
So what position is he? He’s a primary initiator on offense and he’ll defend secondary initiators on defense.
