Game of fucking Thrones (SPOILERS)

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Mori Chu
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Re: Game of fucking Thrones (SPOILERS)

Post by Mori Chu »

This link does a good job describing most of what I dislike about the Dorne plot.

http://www.techinsider.io/game-of-thron ... lot-2016-4

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Indy
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Re: Game of fucking Thrones (SPOILERS)

Post by Indy »

Mori Chu wrote:This link does a good job describing most of what I dislike about the Dorne plot.

http://www.techinsider.io/game-of-thron ... lot-2016-4
So you are a fan of the novels and wish it followed that?

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Re: Game of fucking Thrones (SPOILERS)

Post by Ghost »

Indy wrote:
Mori Chu wrote:So who's seen S06E01 ("The Red Woman")? Thoughts?

I liked it, and it was great to get new GoT. And the ending of the episode was shocking while also confirming a widely held suspicion the book readers have had for a while now. But I have to say that the dialogue was mediocre. (Why so many dumb jokes? "Yo momma"? Really?) And some of the plots (Dorne) feel wasted and unnecessary on the show. I'm a little concerned for how they'll keep the quality standards up without book material to base it on.
I think the Dorne thing will be good for the show. You want to see a battle/struggle among all types of "warriors" battling for the thrown. I am sure the Sand Snakes (that is their name, right?) will play a role in that.

I was a bit surprised to see the Dothraki again. And confused about geography. I got the impression they were an ocean away from where Mereen was.

I wish the show had the guts to do an entire episode to follow a single plot point, and then the next episode will be primarily different characters/plot points. The trying to cover Dorne, King's Landing, Mereen, the Dothraki, Aria, and The Wall was too much for 60 minutes.
I have high hopes for Dorne, but the Sand Snakes have been wildly powerless so far. I trust they will actually learn how to kick ass soon.

Mereen is on the same continent as the Dothraki. Do you not follow the opening animations, Indy? :)

To reply in the wrong order, I somewhat agree with Mori. Based on the last season, I don't have great hopes for the writers branching out into unknown turf to make a new story without book material to fall back on. But, I will watch and I trust HBO's record.

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Re: Game of fucking Thrones (SPOILERS)

Post by Ghost »

Indy wrote:
Mori Chu wrote:This link does a good job describing most of what I dislike about the Dorne plot.

http://www.techinsider.io/game-of-thron ... lot-2016-4
So you are a fan of the novels and wish it followed that?
It is impossible to respond to that without somewhat referencing the books, but I will try.

In the show, the ONLY things that have come from the Dorne subplot are the deaths of Oberyn (well done!) and the Sand Snakes (poorly done). Dorne has played literally no role. In the books, and not to ruin anything, but Dorne is an actual threat. In the show, they are screen time. The show has gone past the books now, but has failed to establish Dorne as relevant to the story. And, with the Sand Snakes now apparently taking control, we are supposed to accept that oh yeah, they are in fact actually pretty badass.

I'm sorry, no. They got decisively beat by Bronn and one-armed Jamie. Yeah, they killed Myrcylla, but they still had their asses handed to them by a strongly outnumbered foe. Not impressed.

To have them now take over Dorne's army is reminiscent of how I learned that Deborah Morgan, from our favorite terrible show Dexter, was a good cop. I only know she was a good cop because the other characters kept saying she was a good cop. She never did any actual cop work; she's just a good cop because they kept saying it. Contrast that with Hank from Breaking Bad, a complete douchebag idiot, but actually a really good cop. I know he was a good cop because he did actual things in the show to prove it.

I think Dorne has promise still. The Sand Snakes have had limited screen time so far, so much is forgivable. But, it has some ground to make up. I'm hoping the writers are up the the task. I think they will pull it off.

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Re: Game of fucking Thrones (SPOILERS)

Post by Indy »

Post more. Don't be such a ghost.

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Re: RE: Re: Game of fucking Thrones (SPOILERS)

Post by Ghost »

Indy wrote:Post more. Don't be such a ghost.
I haven't cared about the NBA since the lockout years ago, and the forums I have interest in are kinda dead. But I will try.

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Mori Chu
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Re: Game of fucking Thrones (SPOILERS)

Post by Mori Chu »

The biggest crime of the TV show is that I honestly think they don't understand the central message of the book series.

GRRM is a big anti-war advocate; a hippie, a peacenik. The main point of the entire book series is: War sucks and is stupid. You get your family, your house, your bannermen, your countrymen, into a war for reasons you think are just. Because they murdered your father, your friend, whomever. Because they took your land. Because the crown is your birthright. So then you go to war and let thousands more of your own people die. More of your family dies. You commit atrocities yourself that are every bit as bad as the ones you were so mad about to begin with. And now the other side wants to go to war with you just as badly in the future. It's a cycle that goes on and on and on.

The books have lots of nice little passages and chapters where they show the effect of these wars on the ordinary people. Farms and fields burnt, villages sacked, children murdered, women raped, countless dead. GRRM does a nice job fooling the reader by making us get fired up, making us want to see the Lannisters get what's coming to them, or want to see Ramsay and the Boltons die, or want to see Prince Doran and the Dornish enact some master plan against King's Landing. But it always ends badly. He's repeatedly trying to tell/show us something.

The TV show doesn't seem to really get this. They have definitely shown some of the horrors of war, but I think they have tilted the scales enough to where the average viewer will lose GRRM's message. They glory a bit too much in the kill, in the big battles, in the spoils of war. In the books, when Stannis has Renly murdered (by a shadow) to take his bannermen to his own side, about half of them desert immediately. In the show, he gets every bannerman but the Tarlys and the Tyrells. In the books, Danaerys is forced to watch as each city she conquered previously (Astapor, Yunkai, Meereen) falls into chaos and tyranny the moment she leaves town. In the show this is barely addressed with an offhand mention and carries no consequences for the characters.

Another thing the books do beautifully is depict morally ambiguous characters. In the books, Jon Snow is *not* a 100% "good guy." He does several dumb things that endanger the Watch and its mission. He tries to rally the men of the Watch to go reclaim Winterfell from the Boltons, which is a petty struggle the Watch ought to have no part in. He sends ships and waves of men to Hardhome, despite knowing that it is surrounded by masses of Walkers and is a lost cause; he wastes tons of Watch resources on this and loses several lives, pissing off the men. The election where Jon becomes Lord Commander, in the show it's a fair and legit election, but in the books Sam basically rigs the election by lying to several men to trick them into voting for Jon for various reasons. Then when Jon is elected, the men who were lied to are rightfully pissed that they were tricked. So it undermines Jon's legitimacy as lord commander. The show just wants Jon to be "The Hero" and doesn't include any of this ambiguous stuff. It oversimplifies.

You might say, it's TV, they SHOULD change it, they should simplify it. Fine; I accept that premise. But they shouldn't change the central thesis and point of the whole series. The real reason Dorne is bad is because they don't actually understand what was interesting about Dorne in the books to begin with. The central point of the Dorne storyline is some combination of the following ideas:

* Having a many years long "master plan" is dumb and unlikely to work out; and
* Pushing your whole country to war for atrocities committed 18 years ago is dumb and will just leave thousands of your people dead.

The show doesn't understand that at all.

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Re: Game of fucking Thrones (SPOILERS)

Post by Ghost »

I disagree with so much of that, Mori, but I really need to sleep.

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