Impeachment

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Mori Chu
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Mori Chu »

JJ Slim wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:32 am
I could be wrong but shouldn't this former ambassador have filed a suit in civil court for wrongful termination instead of complaining about being fired to Congress?
Sue whom, exactly? The President of the United States? Good luck with that. And I don't think she is "complaining about being fired," she is testifying because the House impeachment committee has summoned her to, and it is her duty to do so.

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Indy
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Indy »

Yeah, I didn't get to see too much of her testimony today, but she is answering a subpoena to be there, and she knows she serves at the pleasure of the president. He can fire her any time without cause. The question is, did he fire her for the good of the country or the good of himself.

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Re: Impeachment

Post by JJ Slim »

Agreed with both of you.

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Re: Impeachment

Post by JJ Slim »

Indy wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:54 am
He can fire her any time without cause. The question is, did he fire her for the good of the country or the good of himself.
That was my point. Your first sentence negates the second.

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Indy
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Indy »

JJ Slim wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:24 am
Indy wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:54 am
He can fire her any time without cause. The question is, did he fire her for the good of the country or the good of himself.
That was my point. Your first sentence negates the second.
No it doesn't. Most states in the US have employment at will. Your employer can fire you without cause. But if you find out the employer fired you because you were going to report nefarious activities, that is a crime. The intent is what matters.

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Re: Impeachment

Post by JJ Slim »

Overall I find this very educational. So rarely do we learn the inner workings of our government and how it interacts with other governments. This appears to simply be differences in opinions of policy and how it is executed. The President is the only one who sets foreign policy not ambassadors or other unelected officials. The President is given that authority by way of the voters. They are to execute his policy regardless of whether they agree or not. They can advise and give their input but in the end it is the President's final choice. If they don't feel they can do their duty as asked they are free to resign. By the same token, if the voters disagree with the policies the President set they are free to vote for someone else in the next election.

In other words I don't see anything illegal just differences in policy. There are remedies in place for that but this is not it.

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Indy
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Indy »

JJ Slim wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:01 am
Overall I find this very educational. So rarely do we learn the inner workings of our government and how it interacts with other governments. This appears to simply be differences in opinions of policy and how it is executed. The President is the only one who sets foreign policy not ambassadors or other unelected officials. The President is given that authority by way of the voters. They are to execute his policy regardless of whether they agree or not. They can advise and give their input but in the end it is the President's final choice. If they don't feel they can do their duty as asked they are free to resign. By the same token, if the voters disagree with the policies the President set they are free to vote for someone else in the next election.

In other words I don't see anything illegal just differences in policy. There are remedies in place for that but this is not it.
He bribed Ukraine while they were fighting a war with Russia to publicly announce an investigation into his primary electoral opponent. This is exactly what the impeachment process was put in the Constitution to address.

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Nodack
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Nodack »

JJ Slim wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:32 am
I could be wrong but shouldn't this former ambassador have filed a suit in civil court for wrongful termination instead of complaining about being fired to Congress?
Wasn’t she summoned by Congress to testify? She didn’t ask to testify. She was fired because Rudy’s Ukrainian henchmen told them she would be a problem for their bribery scheme. She is just part of the big picture the Dems are painting.
In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good, you’re not gonna have to vote.

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Re: Impeachment

Post by JJ Slim »

Indy wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:16 am
He bribed Ukraine while they were fighting a war with Russia to publicly announce an investigation into his primary electoral opponent. This is exactly what the impeachment process was put in the Constitution to address.
That is indeed one possible interpretation of his discussion on the phone call. But it is hardly the only possible one. Just because it is the one you might wish for does not make it true. I have yet to see any definitive evidence of any of the possible interpretations.

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Nodack
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Nodack »

On another note. Hunter Biden getting a job working for the Ukraine oil company under investigation while Joe Biden was taking credit for getting a Ukrainian prosecutor fired was a bad optic. I had my doubts about Biden after that and wouldn’t mind someone looking into it further.

Tuesday the State Department witness Kent cleared up a lot of that for me when he was asked about that very thing.

Himes then asked Kent, “Is what the president did in his phone call and what Joe Biden did in terms of Mr. Shokin, are those exactly the same things?”

“I do not think they are the same things,” Kent replied. “What former Vice President Biden requested of former President of Ukraine Poroshenko was the removal of a corrupt prosecutor general, Viktor Shokin, who had undermined a program of assistance that we had spent, again, US taxpayer money to try to build an independent investigator unit to go after corrupt prosecutors.”
In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good, you’re not gonna have to vote.

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Indy
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Indy »

JJ Slim wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:42 am
Indy wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:16 am
He bribed Ukraine while they were fighting a war with Russia to publicly announce an investigation into his primary electoral opponent. This is exactly what the impeachment process was put in the Constitution to address.
That is indeed one possible interpretation of his discussion on the phone call. But it is hardly the only possible one. Just because it is the one you might wish for does not make it true. I have yet to see any definitive evidence of any of the possible interpretations.
You think I wish that the President of the United States of America bribed another country for personal gain by sacrificing Ukraine's fighting a war? That is the last thing I wish for as a US citizen.

I am not sure how else you can interpret that conversation if you read it for yourself. It is blatant.

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Indy
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Indy »

Nodack wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:46 am
On another note. Hunter Biden getting a job working for the Ukraine oil company under investigation while Joe Biden was taking credit for getting a Ukrainian prosecutor fired was a bad optic. I had my doubts about Biden after that and wouldn’t mind someone looking into it further.

Tuesday the State Department witness Kent cleared up a lot of that for me when he was asked about that very thing.

Himes then asked Kent, “Is what the president did in his phone call and what Joe Biden did in terms of Mr. Shokin, are those exactly the same things?”

“I do not think they are the same things,” Kent replied. “What former Vice President Biden requested of former President of Ukraine Poroshenko was the removal of a corrupt prosecutor general, Viktor Shokin, who had undermined a program of assistance that we had spent, again, US taxpayer money to try to build an independent investigator unit to go after corrupt prosecutors.”
I am fully supportive of any congressional investigation into inappropriate behavior by any elected official.

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Re: Impeachment

Post by JJ Slim »

Indy wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:47 am
I am not sure how else you can interpret that conversation if you read it for yourself. It is blatant.
I've read it many times. I did not get that out of it at all. I can see how it could be interpreted that way but it is not clear at all and if I hadn't heard that interpretation from someone else I would never had thought of it

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Re: Impeachment

Post by JJ Slim »

Nodack wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:46 am
On another note. Hunter Biden getting a job working for the Ukraine oil company under investigation while Joe Biden was taking credit for getting a Ukrainian prosecutor fired was a bad optic. I had my doubts about Biden after that and wouldn’t mind someone looking into it further.

Tuesday the State Department witness Kent cleared up a lot of that for me when he was asked about that very thing.

Himes then asked Kent, “Is what the president did in his phone call and what Joe Biden did in terms of Mr. Shokin, are those exactly the same things?”

“I do not think they are the same things,” Kent replied. “What former Vice President Biden requested of former President of Ukraine Poroshenko was the removal of a corrupt prosecutor general, Viktor Shokin, who had undermined a program of assistance that we had spent, again, US taxpayer money to try to build an independent investigator unit to go after corrupt prosecutors.”
Did you happen to hear the Congresswoman from NY Elise Stefanik's question regarding the transcript of Yovanovitch's preparatory question session before her Congressional appointment hearing? She was asked, and confirmed, that one of the questions was how she would respond specifically to questions about Hunter Biden and his association with Burisma Holdings. Mind you that was before her confirmation in Aug 2016 during Obama's administration. I don't have the exact wording so bear with me but it appears there were concerns about it's appearance much longer than since Trump has been in office and before Joe Biden was running for President. If there is nothing there then cool beans. But it is definitely something that should be looked into.

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Re: Impeachment

Post by JJ Slim »

Indy wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:47 am
You think I wish that the President of the United States of America bribed another country for personal gain by sacrificing Ukraine's fighting a war? That is the last thing I wish for as a US citizen.
Not necessarily. What I do know is that there has been talk of impeaching President Trump since before he even was sworn into office. "Impeach 45!" "We're going to impeach that MFer!". Russian Collusion! Stormy Daniels! Obstruction of justice! Campaign finance violation! Emoluments clause! If it was just this I could maybe take it a bit more seriously. But there has been a non-stop attempt to find a crime to impeach him. Sorry but this is just weak and honestly it is embarrassing. On the other hand it is great entertainment.

I understand not liking him or his policies. Trust me he does things sometimes that make me cringe. But that is what the ballot box is for.

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Superbone
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Superbone »

You don't let extortion slide for an entire term. That's what these impeachment rules are for and that's why they're being exercised.
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Indy
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Indy »

JJ Slim wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:20 pm
Indy wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:47 am
You think I wish that the President of the United States of America bribed another country for personal gain by sacrificing Ukraine's fighting a war? That is the last thing I wish for as a US citizen.
Not necessarily. What I do know is that there has been talk of impeaching President Trump since before he even was sworn into office. "Impeach 45!" "We're going to impeach that MFer!". Russian Collusion! Stormy Daniels! Obstruction of justice! Campaign finance violation! Emoluments clause! If it was just this I could maybe take it a bit more seriously. But there has been a non-stop attempt to find a crime to impeach him. Sorry but this is just weak and honestly it is embarrassing. On the other hand it is great entertainment.

I understand not liking him or his policies. Trust me he does things sometimes that make me cringe. But that is what the ballot box is for.
Are you saying that violation of campaign finance laws, obstruction of justice, and violations of the Constitution's emoluments clause are not worth congress holding a president accountable to?

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Re: Impeachment

Post by JJ Slim »

Indy wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:44 pm
JJ Slim wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:20 pm
Indy wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:47 am
You think I wish that the President of the United States of America bribed another country for personal gain by sacrificing Ukraine's fighting a war? That is the last thing I wish for as a US citizen.
Not necessarily. What I do know is that there has been talk of impeaching President Trump since before he even was sworn into office. "Impeach 45!" "We're going to impeach that MFer!". Russian Collusion! Stormy Daniels! Obstruction of justice! Campaign finance violation! Emoluments clause! If it was just this I could maybe take it a bit more seriously. But there has been a non-stop attempt to find a crime to impeach him. Sorry but this is just weak and honestly it is embarrassing. On the other hand it is great entertainment.

I understand not liking him or his policies. Trust me he does things sometimes that make me cringe. But that is what the ballot box is for.
Are you saying that violation of campaign finance laws, obstruction of justice, and violations of the Constitution's emoluments clause are not worth congress holding a president accountable to?
Not at all. If they are true then absolutely. I'm saying that this President has been investigated more than any other in history with very little basis and nothing has been found over and over again.

“Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime” - Lavrentiy Beria (Joseph Stalin’s secret police chief)

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Re: Impeachment

Post by JJ Slim »

Superbone wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:25 pm
You don't let extortion slide for an entire term. That's what these impeachment rules are for and that's why they're being exercised.
Once again agreed fully. And if they weren't trying to impeach him from day one before he had a chance to do anything wrong I could see spending the time to investigate it's merits.

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Superbone
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Superbone »

JJ Slim wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:04 pm
Superbone wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:25 pm
You don't let extortion slide for an entire term. That's what these impeachment rules are for and that's why they're being exercised.
Once again agreed fully. And if they weren't trying to impeach him from day one before he had a chance to do anything wrong I could see spending the time to investigate it's merits.
So, apparently you agree that it was a "perfect" phone call?
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"Be Legendary."

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