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I read that if you rape someone in Oklahoma, you get 5 years in prison. If you abort the baby produced by that rape, 10 years (if this law passes).

But was the rape the will of God?

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:06 am

I read that if you rape someone in Oklahoma, you get 5 years in prison. If you abort the baby produced by that rape, 10 years (if this law passes).

This is where it might make more sense to charge the rapist with the abortion(and consequences involved), imo.

Do you agree that people who get abortions should face criminal charges?

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:51 pm

Do you agree that people who get abortions should face criminal charges?

Agree with you? I had no idea you had this opinion.

It's a complicated issue, as I am not for abortion. To put the full weight of the consequences on the mother seems unfair too.

In2ition wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:26 am

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:51 pm

Do you agree that people who get abortions should face criminal charges?

Agree with you? I had no idea you had this opinion.

It's a complicated issue, as I am not for abortion. To put the full weight of the consequences on the mother seems unfair too.

No, not agree with me; as you might guess, I am pro-abortion. So in your view, what do you think the law should be? Should abortion be banned in all 50 US states by a nationwide ban law? Should the law be left up to each state to decide, so red states would ban it and blue states would allow it?

If the latter (which would be the more likely state if Roe were overturned), what should the penalty be, and who should be forced to pay that penalty? The woman who got the abortion? The husband, if he also concurs with getting the abortion? The doctor who performs it? The medical staff who assists that doctor? An insurance provider who helps pay for it?

And what should the penalty be? Prison time? How many years? What if they live in a red state but travel to a blue state (or out of the country) to get an abortion, then come back? Should they be arrested or punished for that?

I'm not trying to attack or insult your view. My wife is strongly anti-abortion and we find a way to get along. I'm just curious what the ideal law/situation would be in your view.

My opinion: I would love it if we could eliminate abortion…the idea of it is wrong to me. I don’t think criminalizing it is the way to go though. I’d focus on education, medical care, resources, programs to help provide adoptions, etc.

I’m also not opposed to all abortions, there are definitely times when it should be ok(rape, incest, health, underage pregnancy).

And if you gave me the choice on letting the government decide or the individual decide when it’s appropriate, I’d lean toward letting the individual decide. I don’t trust what the government would decide.

So I guess that makes me pro-choice, though personally pro-life.

I don't believe a fetus is a human life until it can survive outside the host's womb. Up until that point, it really shouldn't be anyone's business but the host. After that point, the decision should be a medical one between the host and their medical team.

Indy wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:44 am

I don't believe a fetus is a human life until it can survive outside the host's womb. Up until that point, it really shouldn't be anyone's business but the host. After that point, the decision should be a medical one between the host and their medical team.

Survive outside the womb by itself or with assistance?

In2ition wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:05 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:44 am

I don't believe a fetus is a human life until it can survive outside the host's womb. Up until that point, it really shouldn't be anyone's business but the host. After that point, the decision should be a medical one between the host and their medical team.

Survive outside the womb by itself or with assistance?

Yeah, as we know, all born babies can survive out in the streets on their own.

I dread it when I'm walking down a dark alley and there's a gang of street babies.

One thing I have trouble understanding is, if you are anti-abortion, why is abortion okay in the case of rape or incest? If that is still a human life with a soul, why is it suddenly okay to kill it just because it was conceived in a less than ideal way? Is it the fetus's fault it was conceived through non-consentual union, or because its mother happens to be a bit younger than our current societal expectation? Is it any less deserving of its life?

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:13 am

One thing I have trouble understanding is, if you are anti-abortion, why is abortion okay in the case of rape or incest? If that is still a human life with a soul, why is it suddenly okay to kill it just because it was conceived in a less than ideal way? Is it the fetus's fault it was conceived through non-consentual union, or because its mother happens to be a bit younger than our current societal expectation? Is it any less deserving of its life?

Understandable question…what I’d say is it’s a complex situation. I think there are very few things where you can say with certainty that it’s always wrong. You can’t always separate every action from each other…so in an instance where someone is raped and becomes pregnant from the rape, it just seems extra cruel to also say, sorry you’re stuck with this constant reminder of what was probably the most horrific moment of your life. I do value the life of a fetus, but not moreso than the mother.

From the more spiritual, religious side of the argument as you mentioned the soul, I’m honestly not sure how I feel about that. I am religious, but I don’t know when the soul arrives in the body. I don’t believe though that aborting a fetus was the one chance that soul had at life.

Away from the religious stuff, I’d also say that completely outlawing abortion is going to cause more problems. Black market abortions, more babies born into poverty or abusive situations. Again, I’d like to lower the amount of abortions we have, but criminalizing it is not the answer.

Last thing I’ll say, I think we can all agree that there’s a time when ending the life of a baby/fetus is wrong. I think we’d all agree that ending its life after its born is murder. There doesn’t seem a whole lot of difference to me in that and ending the life of a full term baby before it’s born. I don’t know where the line is though and it just seems kinda weird that there would be a hard line…though I do understand the thinking that Indy mentioned where once the fetus is viable and could live outside the womb it can be considered a human life. If anyone has compelling arguments for where that line is, I’d certainly listen.

If anyone has compelling arguments for where that line is, I’d certainly listen.

I think that is the tricky part. I believe SCOTUS has that timeline set at somewhere around 25 weeks, as if a fetus is progressing normally, it is likely to survive (absent extenuating circumstances) with modern medical treatments if delivered at +25 weeks.

If a fetus is at 38 weeks but delivering it will likely cause severe, life-threatening trauma/certain death to the host, what do you do?

Indy wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:09 pm

If anyone has compelling arguments for where that line is, I’d certainly listen.

I think that is the tricky part. I believe SCOTUS has that timeline set at somewhere around 25 weeks, as if a fetus is progressing normally, it is likely to survive (absent extenuating circumstances) with modern medical treatments if delivered at +25 weeks.

If a fetus is at 38 weeks but delivering it will likely cause severe, life-threatening trauma/certain death to the host, what do you do?

Always exceptions and I think you have to value the life of the mother over the unborn baby, so I think terminating the pregnancy would be warranted in your scenario.

Same; I was just curious on your thoughts.

I like to avoid this topic altogether.

Yeah, not a fun topic.

Texas arrests a woman for performing an abortion on herself.

There are so many sad things about this.

Starr County woman arrested for “self-induced abortion”
https://www.valleycentral.com/news/loca ... -abortion/

STARR COUNTY, Texas (ValleyCentral) — A woman has been charged with murder after authorities say she performed a “self-induced abortion.”

Lizelle Herrera, 26, was arrested on Thursday by the Starr County Sheriff’s Office and charged with murder.

According to a sheriff’s office spokesperson, Herrera was arrested after it was learned she “intentionally and knowingly cause the death of an individual by self-induced abortion.”