Biden Administration misc. activities

[3rdside]

i don't think "once a racist always a racist" but you don't stop being a racist in your 30s/40s/+50s because you got caught being racist. You would have to go through a life-changing event. I agree that becoming a father for some is a life changing event that could cause all kind of major changes to your thinking/philosophy on life.

And what I posted wasn't a judgement of anyone in this thread or anywhere else. It is just a statement that the vast majority of people in the world would not describe themselves as racist. But almost EVERYONE is racist to some extent (it is a wide spectrum). So people say racism exists and it is bad, but then define racism as something further away from them on the spectrum so they can sit with the internal logic that *they* are not racist, but *those people* are.

I agree with you. I think when people argue to justify a level of racism, that's a poor argument and only shows ignorance to the reality. It's either a racist notion or it isn't. There aren't levels to it that make one form right vs the other.

There's levels in everything - or nuance if you like - and defining this is difficult for the best of people; less able people will miss it altogether as they're prone to seeing things in more clunky, black and white terms.

On that point, it pays to be more sensitive to a topic and avoid planet of the ape - and yes, probably black body, white brain - type comments altogether.

[Mori Chu]

And you don't say things like "you got the best of both worlds--a black mans body and a white mans brain" if you are not racist. Immediately saying right afterwards that you aren't racist for saying it because you don't mean anything bad by it, and then adding that black brains are different than white brains, is you doubling down on your racism. He is racist, and not just on the fringes of the spectrum.

It's a clunky / non-pc comment but it's simply not categorically racist - I'd take it as a compliment personally but that's just me.

If you can accept that black bodies are athletically superior to white bodies - which they undeniably are - and that white IQ at the margins are higher than black IQ at the margins, then it's simply a factual statement.

That said however, while I believe there's nothing wrong talking about the superiority of black bodies, I strongly disagree with talking about the superiority of white brains because it categorically will lead to overt racism in society, the thing we're all trying to avoid.

The bolded sentence surprises me. The "best of both worlds" comment by Rogan is clearly racist. So is the "Planet of the Apes" comment. So are the dozens of times he spoke the "N word." What exact response to these comments is most appropriate is up for debate. I think a person can invoke racial stereotypes and even make offensive comments without necessarily being racist in their heart. And I don't really believe in deplatforming people unless they are truly vile. But I don't see the point in trying to argue about whether these statements were racist. They clearly are.

As for the "hypocrite" part about Trevor Noah: It is possible for one imperfect person to criticize another. The fact that Noah has made some offensive statements in his past does not disqualify him from having an opinion about Rogan.

I do think some of the other posts in this thread resonate with me. I think one of the things we are losing in society now that it is possible to search back through very old messages and content is the ability to shed our past and grow as people. I said ALL KINDS of horrible things as a younger man. Not much racial stuff, but I made sexist jokes about women, I used slurs to describe gay people, and any number of other bad things. I didn't post any of that on the Internet, thank God, partly because social media was not popular yet. But I have grown and matured and changed since then, and nowadays I would not say those kinds of things. Not only because I know I would get in trouble, but because I feel differently about the relevant groups of people. If there were video footage of young me saying all those bad things, I would never be able to escape it. And that would be a bad thing. People do grow and change. We need to give them space to do that, and not dig up every single one of their past failings to attack them with.

[3rdside]

Will write more later but yes I agree with you about the bolded statement .. I’m a little rushed getting a deadline in at work.

[3rdside]

And you don't say things like "you got the best of both worlds--a black mans body and a white mans brain" if you are not racist. Immediately saying right afterwards that you aren't racist for saying it because you don't mean anything bad by it, and then adding that black brains are different than white brains, is you doubling down on your racism. He is racist, and not just on the fringes of the spectrum.

It's a clunky / non-pc comment but it's simply not categorically racist - I'd take it as a compliment personally but that's just me.

If you can accept that black bodies are athletically superior to white bodies - which they undeniably are - and that white IQ at the margins are higher than black IQ at the margins, then it's simply a factual statement.

That said however, while I believe there's nothing wrong talking about the superiority of black bodies, I strongly disagree with talking about the superiority of white brains because it categorically will lead to overt racism in society, the thing we're all trying to avoid.

The bolded sentence surprises me. The "best of both worlds" comment by Rogan is clearly racist. So is the "Planet of the Apes" comment. So are the dozens of times he spoke the "N word." What exact response to these comments is most appropriate is up for debate. I think a person can invoke racial stereotypes and even make offensive comments without necessarily being racist in their heart. And I don't really believe in deplatforming people unless they are truly vile. But I don't see the point in trying to argue about whether these statements were racist. They clearly are.

Agree with this - looking back on what I wrote, the white brain / black body comments are racially charged beyond a comfortable level and go directly against what I was saying about *not* talking about the marginally higher IQ of whites.

The planet of the apes comment doesn't contravene that point so maybe I'm less opposed to it but again it sounds pretty racially charged and definitely isn't something I'd recommend saying publicly, as Rogan is finding out. I am the first to call out people for using the N word as it's horrendous, if I heard the planet of the apes comment in conversation i'd probably let it slide but definitely won't be saying it myself.

As for the "hypocrite" part about Trevor Noah: It is possible for one imperfect person to criticize another. The fact that Noah has made some offensive statements in his past does not disqualify him from having an opinion about Rogan.

Generally agree *so long as he qualifies his position*, which he did not do (unless I'm missing the full clip). To trash someone for the exact same thing you've done without discussing the previous error of your ways is straight hypocrisy.

I do think some of the other posts in this thread resonate with me. I think one of the things we are losing in society now that it is possible to search back through very old messages and content is the ability to shed our past and grow as people. I said ALL KINDS of horrible things as a younger man. Not much racial stuff, but I made sexist jokes about women, I used slurs to describe gay people, and any number of other bad things. I didn't post any of that on the Internet, thank God, partly because social media was not popular yet. But I have grown and matured and changed since then, and nowadays I would not say those kinds of things. Not only because I know I would get in trouble, but because I feel differently about the relevant groups of people. If there were video footage of young me saying all those bad things, I would never be able to escape it. And that would be a bad thing. People do grow and change. We need to give them space to do that, and not dig up every single one of their past failings to attack them with.

Growing up in an English colony we told racist jokes about the Indians and the Irish (the latter less offensive as the target is white people, I guess). It worries me a little just how many racist jokes we used to tell, which no doubt comes from the parents, but like you it got phased out as I got older (pretty much by the second or third year of high school I'd worked out it wasn't cool to be telling these jokes).

[3rdside]

But just to add — Joe rogan is not racist, even accounting for his comments.

[Indy]

But just to add — Joe rogan is not racist, even accounting for his comments.

this is just... i don't know how you can defend what he said. or maybe you are saying "yeah he said racist things recently, but that doesn't mean he is racist." Both are dead wrong.

[3rdside]

This is just what?

He said things he didn’t consider racist that turns out they were, which he’s now acknowledged via his unreserved apology.

Many others who’ve said racist things have not apologised.

Have you watched Joe rogan? Do you seriously get the impression he has an anti-black agenda?

[Indy]

it is interesting to me that you think you have to have an anti-black agenda to be racist.

And why would it matter if he didn't consider his racist comments and thoughts to be racist?

[3rdside]

it is interesting to me that you think you have to have an anti-black agenda to be racist.

And why would it matter if he didn't consider his racist comments and thoughts to be racist?

I tried to define what being a racist is already, as it’s a pretty hard thing to do, but liberal dudes like rogan and Maher pass the test .. of that I’m sure.

It matters because if he didn’t think they were racist he effectively gets a pass, in conjunction with his apology and his clearly liberal disposition.

[Indy]

political party/leaning has nothing to do with if you are a racist--despite the fact that maher supports as many conservative views as he does liberal.

And whether you *think* you are being racist has nothing to do with whether or not you *are* a racist. I don't get why that is hard to understand.

[3rdside]

political party/leaning has nothing to do with if you are a racist--despite the fact that maher supports as many conservative views as he does liberal.

And whether you *think* you are being racist has nothing to do with whether or not you *are* a racist. I don't get why that is hard to understand.

Sorry, I was talking about liberal in terms of it being a philosophy and not a political leaning:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

“Political philosopher John Gray identified the common strands in liberal thought as being individualist, egalitarian, meliorist and universalist. The individualist element avers the ethical primacy of the human being against the pressures of social collectivism, the egalitarian element assigns the same moral worth and status to all individuals, the meliorist element asserts that successive generations can improve their sociopolitical arrangements and the universalist element affirms the moral unity of the human species and marginalises local cultural differences”.

(Side comment - it’s why, as a liberal, it’s sad to see the term ‘liberal’ get trashed in the USA, as the USA exists in the form you see today largely because of the adoption of liberalism .. Using modern terminology, it’s not liberalism that’s the problem, it’s that liberalism got taken down the wrong path by wokeism…approximately)

Back to your comment:

Whether you think you’re being racist surely does matter - if you don’t know what you’re doing is wrong, how would you know what you’re doing is a bad thing?

(That there is the principle point of CRT - unconscious bias - or unconscious racism).

Again, rogan gets a pass for his ignorance via his liberal disposition (the philosophy) and his apology.

[Indy]

You bend over backwards to justify giving racists a pass. And your continued railing against 'wokeism' goes hand in hand with that.

[Indy]

Oh, and that is why I said 'leaning' to go along with politics. you can parse it however you want, but maher is not majority liberal in his beliefs. He is more of a "Libertarian" in how they are classified in US terms. Sure he is for his independence in nearly everything he wants to do, especially freedom of choice for what he puts in his body, but is fine bombing the shit out of brown people and supporting 'Apartheid' in Israel.

[3rdside]

You bend over backwards to justify giving racists a pass. And your continued railing against 'wokeism' goes hand in hand with that.

I do nothing of the sort - I explain pretty clearly why I think rogan isn’t one.

Stephen Miller, Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene etc - these mthrfkrs are definitely racist.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree here.

And your defence of wokeism says to me you underestimate - or are not aware of - the threat of it, a point I’ve been making since before the 2020 election, and I find that a little staggering but we can agree to disagree here also.

There’s nothing wrong with being woke btw but, like CRT, it’s the twisted application of the principles, usually by not very capable people, that leads to problems.

[Indy]

wokeism only seems to be a problem for privileged white people. at least those are 99% of the only people i hear whining about it.

And for the rogan comments... What he said is racist, without any debate. the only way he isn't racist for saying it (and many things like it) would be him not meaning it that way. Which you cannot possible know, because you are not him.

[Indy]

and yeah, seems like we will agree to disagree on this same topic again and again.

[3rdside]

wokeism only seems to be a problem for privileged white people. at least those are 99% of the only people i hear whining about it.

And for the rogan comments... What he said is racist, without any debate. the only way he isn't racist for saying it (and many things like it) would be him not meaning it that way. Which you cannot possible know, because you are not him.

I will say you are horribly misguided about the threat of wokeism if that’s all you can say about it.

You’re right that I can’t categorically know if rogan is or isn’t racist, but on the balance of probabilities when considering the data points, and having watched enough of him on YouTube, I’m pretty comfortable with my assessment.

[3rdside]

A shorter version of the same video, you can listen from 3.55 and it’s just a 5.58 video..

[In2ition]

I thought the CIA wasn't supposed to operate in the US?

[3rdside]

A shorter version of the same video, you can listen from 3.55 and it’s just a 5.58 video..

And before you say privileged white guy again, I’d read his background:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris

I mean, his PhD was literally on the subject of morality:

“He received a Ph.D. in cognitive neuroscience in 2009 from the University of California, Los Angeles, where his thesis was titled ‘The Moral Landscape: How Science Could Determine Human Values’”.

Calling Harris a privileged white guy is surely a stereotypical statement made in ignorance … reverse racism in full effect, in other words.