World Politics

Political discussion here. Any reasonable opinion is welcome, but due to the sensitive nature of the topic area, please be nice and respectful to others. No flaming or trolling, please. And please keep political commentary out of the other board areas and confine it to this area. Thanks!
User avatar
virtual9mm
Posts: 1294
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:24 pm

Re: World Politics

Post by virtual9mm »

Not much more needs to be said except for the following two points:
  • Bush the Elder knew what he was doing when he declined to occupy Iraq although how we treated the Kurds was just like the way we're treating the Afghans today. Bush the Elder entrusted his idiot son, Bush the Junior, to Powell and Cheney. The latter sold Bush the Junior down the river.
  • Afghanistan was a war that needed to be fought. The World Trade Center attacks were organized by Al Qaeda under Taliban protection. There had to be SOMETHING that had to be done. And going in was the right thing to do. How much more could we have accomplished had we not had to worry about Iraq at the same time? That was the crucial error.
Regarding nation-building, I remember a heated exchange between my PhD advisor and Jim Woolsey (former CIA director) back in the early 2000s. My advisor (a Korea expert) was arguing that it was unrealistic to be able to achieve stable regime change in North Korea after a nation-building project. Woolsey stood up, interrupted the lecture, and asked "Are you telling me that we can't have democracy in North Korea?"

It's chickenhawks like this that the Afghans are stuck paying the bill for.

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 5178
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: World Politics

Post by Nodack »

Bush senior had a deal with the Arab nations in the area, particularly Saudi Arabia that he would drive Saddam out of Kuwait but, he would not invade Iraq. Otherwise they wouldn’t allow us to use their air bases and stage attacks from their country. That’s the way I remember it at least. Bush senior kept his word.

I think many Republicans felt we didn’t finish the job and take out Saddam the first time and the Iraq war was just part II.

We fought the war in Afghanistan and got the bad guys we came for. Spreading Democracy wasn’t why we came. Well, it wasn’t what we were originally were told we were doing there. I am not sure what we could have done in Afghanistan to end up with any kind of different ending. I think every scenario ends with the Taliban regaining control. They have no other place to go. They live there and are not going to change their culture.



Does anyone think the newfound friendship the Taliban has with China, Russia and Iran will last? They have a long history of not being friendly with foriegners messing with their country.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 14396
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: World Politics

Post by Indy »

Nodack wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:26 pm
I forgot it was a Trump order. Biden could have reversed it if he wanted to I believe. I think America is done with that war. The political games and blame will dominate the news now. I am not really interested in all that anymore. No matter who was President or in control the fact remains we are a country and we all get the blame. Time to move on and maybe learn from our repeated mistakes.

Thinking of the future. Like Indy said, Bush knew what he was doing. I really wonder how much power the military complex/lobbyists have over our politicians during times when there is an escalation of hostilities between us and whomever. That’s a conspiracy theory sort of..


Image

Image
He could have reversed the decision, but the drawdown was already under way when he took office, and Trump's org negotiated a deal for the exit. If he went back on it, which would have meant sending MORE troops to the region since some had already been removed, it would have been awful.

I realize it is awful either way. Nation building never works. Honestly, wars almost never work. The issue with this war is that we (the US) seems to still think about wars between countries. And the borders in the middle east are just made up lines by the Allies after WWI and has almost no meaning to the people actually living there. So you have these imaginary lines that the rest of the white world tells you you need to live by, which only drives more resentment.

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 5178
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: World Politics

Post by Nodack »

Apache Helicopters Chase Afghans Swarming A C-17 On Kabul Airport's Runway (Updated)
Whatever security perimeter existed at Kabul International appears to have collapsed with Afghans running freely across its runway and taxiways.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... rts-runway
Any security perimeter or containment measures aimed at keeping U.S. aircraft and personnel safe at Kabul International appear to have failed. As thousands of Afghans flocked to the airport in a desperate attempt to escape the Taliban, they have now taken to the runway, in effect shutting down the evacuation operation.




Online
User avatar
Split T
Posts: 13729
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Provo, Utah

Re: World Politics

Post by Split T »

Are these people trying to escape Afghanistan? Is there any other reason they’d be clinging to the plane?
Thad Young please

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 14396
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: World Politics

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:46 am
Are these people trying to escape Afghanistan? Is there any other reason they’d be clinging to the plane?
Yes, they are. They are fearful for their lives and the lives of their loved ones. Meets the very definition of why we have an asylum program.

User avatar
Superbone
Posts: 22702
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:44 am
Location: Escondido, CA (Phoenix Native)

Re: World Politics

Post by Superbone »

Indy wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:56 am
Split T wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:46 am
Are these people trying to escape Afghanistan? Is there any other reason they’d be clinging to the plane?
Yes, they are. They are fearful for their lives and the lives of their loved ones. Meets the very definition of why we have an asylum program.
Can you imagine how desperate you'd have to be to think you could hold onto the outside of a jet plane?
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season! Like it mattered. We rarely see Wormwood anyway!

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 5178
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: World Politics

Post by Nodack »

I would rather take my chances with the Taliban. Trying to hold onto a plane going 500+ mph at 30,000 seems pretty dumb.

300,000 Afghan troops abandoned their posts and their leaders all fled the country.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 14396
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: World Politics

Post by Indy »

Nodack wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:33 pm
I would rather take my chances with the Taliban. Trying to hold onto a plane going 500+ mph at 30,000 seems pretty dumb.

300,000 Afghan troops abandoned their posts and their leaders all fled the country.
I heard the troops haven't been paid in months. The government has been basically stealing money. Not sure where it has all gone. Also heard basically no violence has occurred between 'Taliban' forces and Afgan forces during this take over.

Online
User avatar
In2ition
Posts: 7786
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: World Politics

Post by In2ition »









"30 wins would be an extremely disappointing season" yeah, I said it and I mean it.
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 5178
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: World Politics

Post by Nodack »

It is really sad. Trump and Biden both decided we had been there long enough and I think the vast majority of Americans agree with them. It was never going to be a good time to leave. I do think they could have handled the exit better. They were all shocked by just how fast the Taliban took over and how fast the Afghan troops deserted.

They might not have been paid recently. How much does being in the Taliban pay? Their troops aren’t on salary and they are highly motivated.

User avatar
Superbone
Posts: 22702
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:44 am
Location: Escondido, CA (Phoenix Native)

Re: World Politics

Post by Superbone »

It’s just not possible to police the world. Horrible things are happening to those families and young women. It’s such a helpless feeling.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season! Like it mattered. We rarely see Wormwood anyway!

User avatar
Flagrant Fowl
Posts: 5848
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:04 am
Location: Haeundae, Busan, South Korea

Re: World Politics

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

The US government more or less created the Taliban by sponsoring them to fight the Russians in the 1980's, and it's not the first nor last time they'll do the same thing. There are some truly evil "Americans" who'll sell out humanity for material wealth and power.

Not that this is a recent development. People have been doing stuff like this to each other forever. It needs to stop if we ever want to achieve the peaceful ideals we otherwise project with hot air, and it's why I get frustrated when others tarnish the role of "whistleblowers". There needs to be some accountability for the evil in the world.
UOducks4life in a previous life. Valar Morghulis.

User avatar
virtual9mm
Posts: 1294
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:24 pm

Re: World Politics

Post by virtual9mm »

We're all responsible for this debacle. Every single man killed or mutilated, every single woman raped, every single child sold into slavery. None of us can escape the collective responsibility we face as Americans.

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 14396
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: World Politics

Post by Indy »

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:36 pm
The US government more or less created the Taliban by sponsoring them to fight the Russians in the 1980's, and it's not the first nor last time they'll do the same thing. There are some truly evil "Americans" who'll sell out humanity for material wealth and power.

Not that this is a recent development. People have been doing stuff like this to each other forever. It needs to stop if we ever want to achieve the peaceful ideals we otherwise project with hot air, and it's why I get frustrated when others tarnish the role of "whistleblowers". There needs to be some accountability for the evil in the world.
The Taliban didn't exist until the 1990s. But yeah, we supported the mujahideen, which eventually morphed enough into the Taliban. I wonder where in the world the US is seen as supportive versus destructive. My guess would be only in very few, mostly white countries, is our country seen as an overall benefit to the world.

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 5178
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: World Politics

Post by Nodack »

America needs to get it’s shit together.

User avatar
Nodack
Posts: 5178
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: World Politics

Post by Nodack »

https://www.cnsnews.com/article/interna ... taiwan-too
Chinese State Media Outlet Says US Will ‘Abandon’ Taiwan, Too, ‘Once a War Breaks Out’

China holds assault drills near Taiwan after 'provocations'
https://news.trust.org/item/20210817050008-3oull

User avatar
Indy
Posts: 14396
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: World Politics

Post by Indy »

Nodack wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:26 am
America needs to get it’s shit together.
I don't think it is a recent thing. Like basically forever.

User avatar
Superbone
Posts: 22702
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:44 am
Location: Escondido, CA (Phoenix Native)

Re: World Politics

Post by Superbone »

virtual9mm wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:18 am
We're all responsible for this debacle. Every single man killed or mutilated, every single woman raped, every single child sold into slavery. None of us can escape the collective responsibility we face as Americans.
What's the solution?
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season! Like it mattered. We rarely see Wormwood anyway!

User avatar
Superbone
Posts: 22702
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:44 am
Location: Escondido, CA (Phoenix Native)

Re: World Politics

Post by Superbone »

Indy wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:51 am
Nodack wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:26 am
America needs to get it’s shit together.
I don't think it is a recent thing. Like basically forever.
It's a good thing all the other countries have their shit together.
Wormwood/Superbone 2019/2020 season bet: Suns win < 30 games, Wormwood wins, else 'Bone wins. 1 month avatar shame starting July 1st of winner's choosing. ACCOMPLISHED! 34 wins in a shortened season! Like it mattered. We rarely see Wormwood anyway!

Post Reply