What does anyone gain by this? I have read several things about it (but in my laziness haven't read the law itself). I am truly asking if anyone sees a benefit to this other than promoting bigotry?
Re: Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:21 pm
by Dan H
I'm annoyed by it personally because I feel like there's vastly more important things our legislators should be working on (as in, "to be tackled after mastering cold fusion") but the hype is pretty much just that, hype.
I disagree about it being hype. Yes, focus on Indiana alone is probably more hype than needed, but it is a huge deal. Especially when you look beyond the rhetoric that says it is just like another 18 states with "similar" acts.
Indy wrote:I disagree about it being hype. Yes, focus on Indiana alone is probably more hype than needed, but it is a huge deal. Especially when you look beyond the rhetoric that says it is just like another 18 states with "similar" acts.
Indiana has focused attention on RFRA laws, but it's stupid to focus on Indiana. These laws are all over the place. Understand them. Understand how they apply in many different scenarios and how they are limited by courts in their application. Understand that if we're going to relieve religious believers of the burdens of generally applicable laws, courts are going to have to avoid preferring one religion over another. You can't accommodate the religions you agree with or think are sweet and fuzzy and say no to the ones who seem mean or ugly. We need to figure that out. If, in the end, you think the Indiana RFRA is a bad idea, check that map and see if your state has RFRA (or a RFRA-like state constitutional provision) and push for repeal in your state. And get after Congress. Congress started it. Unless you're Hoosier, leave Indiana alone. Stop otherizing Indiana.
and re that atlantic article, it's from the same guy who wrote a book about how terrible it was for the U.S. Supreme Court to deny special exceptions to religious believers
Re: Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:23 pm
by Dan H
Indy wrote:I disagree about it being hype. Yes, focus on Indiana alone is probably more hype than needed, but it is a huge deal. Especially when you look beyond the rhetoric that says it is just like another 18 states with "similar" acts.
Yeah, meanwhile in the real world we're about to grant nuclear weapons to a true-blue theocracy that executes gays, but let's spend all our news cycle focus on Indiana's provision of an affirmative defense for people of faith. Just because that defense exists doesn't mean it will be upheld. Again, read the National Review article if you read nothing else of what I posted. One of the main things the Atlantic writer is fired up about is merely codifying a Supreme Court precedent from Burwell. How crazy. /sarc.
The greatest irony of course is that all the editorials on the subject are longer than the actual bill itself.
And circling back to my point about it being moot, it really is.
I honestly don’t think (despite what some RFRA supporters secretly wish) RFRA is a vehicle for discrimination. It simply outlines a test for when government rules and religious liberty clash. I really do get it. And guess what, none of that matters. It doesn’t. Stop shaking your head, it doesn’t matter. Listen to me, it doesn’t matter.
There’s an old saying in politics, it ain’t what it is, it’s what it looks like.
So yes, it's hype. The purposes and actual results don't matter, because the hype machine took off and the truth doesn't matter.
EDIT -
I think I've figured out a good comparison to this.
When I was in junior high, I was sitting home on MLK Day watching TV. Regis and Kathy Lee started bemoaning the fact that the poor kids in Arizona didn't get the day off because Arizona was so backward. Well, guess what, it was BS. Arizona just didn't make MLK Day a paid holiday for state employees. But it steamrolled to the point that there were potential repercussions such as losing Super Bowls and the like. So now state employees in Arizona have another paid day off.
I really am just exhausted with this whole story and I'm annoyed as heck at my governor and state reps because the stupidity, particularly on my FB feed has just been mind numbing (one FB friend shrieked that Indiana was going to put gays into camps, for pete's sake). Abdul calls it a Richard Mourdock moment, I go one further, it's a Todd Akin moment. We've got freaking potholes out the wazoo because we aren't getting highway bills and the state is sitting upon tens of millions in surplus that was supposed to be refunded to the taxpayers and they're pulling this nonsense. It's galling.
Re: Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:14 pm
by Ghost
The backlash against Indiana is because Indiana is the latest state to jump in the Bigot Boat and set sail.
And they deserve it, every bit of it. Not because of anything particularly egregious about their law, but because some bigot's 1st Amendment rights are not infringed upon by a gay couple's 14th. I have said this before, but making a cake is not a declaration of support for gay marriage, any more than selling a Coke to a black man is an endorsement of his race. You can, and have the right to be, a bigot. If you own a business, you agree to play by rules. This law circumvents these rules.
Dan, you call it "Indiana's provision of an affirmative defense for people of faith" -- that's absurd and insulting, and as a True Conservative (tm), you should realize that. It is not a defense for anyone of faith. It is a defense and a legal loophole for bigots, plain and simple.
And PLEASE, I have seen the "let the free market work it out" argument on Facebook all day. I don't need it here again. The free market does not resolve bigotry, it only institutionalizes it.
I have more to say, but I'm deleting it for now as it's coming across as very harsh against certain of our more conservative posters.
Re: Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:50 am
by Mori Chu
Indiana's law is stupid. The state is getting rightfully shit on by lots of big companies refusing to bring their business there. They will repeal it due to such pressure, as they should. Let it be a lesson to any backwards ass anti gay people out there that that shit is absolutely not okay any more.
Re: Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:07 am
by Nodack
I'm just glad some other state is taking the heat this time instead of AZ. Although we just took a hit with the AZ politician wanting to make Church mandatory. A mind is a terrible thing...
Re: Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:30 am
by Dan H
Ghost wrote:
And PLEASE, I have seen the "let the free market work it out" argument on Facebook all day. I don't need it here again. The free market does not resolve bigotry, it only institutionalizes it.
I didn't make that argument. And as for the rest of your post, you're right to an extent. Whether or not that was the actual intention, perception has become reality. Just another in a line of disappointments from Governor Pence for us, honestly.
Re: Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:43 am
by SDC
i agree with the fox all star panel that it's much ado about nothing, just ginned up by the progressive left vs a red state
Ghost wrote:
And PLEASE, I have seen the "let the free market work it out" argument on Facebook all day. I don't need it here again. The free market does not resolve bigotry, it only institutionalizes it.
I didn't make that argument. And as for the rest of your post, you're right to an extent. Whether or not that was the actual intention, perception has become reality. Just another in a line of disappointments from Governor Pence for us, honestly.
The way I wrote that post made it look like I specifically was gearing that line at you. I was not. I HAVE seen you make that argument before, but in this case, you did not and I did not intend to attack you directly on that one.
But seriously, that is what I've been seeing all day on Facebook. Facebook debates are, obviously, not nearly as intelligent as even the worst arguments we have here, so I was a bit heated. My apologies.
Re: Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law
Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:47 am
by Dan H
No worries.
Hopefully this will dispell some of the hysteria, or at least focus it on Arkansas, LOL:
No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
Re: Indiana's "Religious Freedom" Law
Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:12 pm
by LazarusLong
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
You know what sucks about Tapatalk? Almost nothing. But it doesn't recognize that it should hide posts from blocked posters in the "unread" thread. Damn, things were so nice for a while. SDC, why does that not surprise me.
