2020 Election Thread

[In2ition]

Yes. You think the Nazis were shunning Jews for believing lies?

No, I said that the same tactics were being used.

Yes, shunning people for promoting lies and conspiracies was a classic Nazi tactic. It is in the Nazi 101 playbook.

We can debate whether they are lies or not, but it seems like your mind is made up on what they are. The tactics proposed to be used against a large set of your fellow citizens is quite different.

If you want to debate up from down, right from left, black from white, go ahead. I won't be participating in the perpetuation of lies.

Holy arrogant, Batman! You keep surprising me.

[In2ition]

Like it or not, this isn't going away anytime soon. Sorry


Michigan Removed 177,000 Voters from Voter Rolls in January After Certifying Biden Won Michigan by 154,000 Votes in November
By Joe Hoft
Published February 18, 2021 at 7:30am
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/0 ... -november/

Michigan now admits after ‘certifying’ the 2020 Presidential election, that more voters should be removed from their voter rolls than there were votes won by Joe Biden in the race. Mixed with other suspected fraud, (like 141,000 ballot drops at 6am the day after the election) all the ballots in this state should be forensically audited to determine the full extent of the election fraud.
There was so much fraud in Michigan in the 2020 election it is difficult to know where to start. There were late-night ballot dumps in Michigan like other states:

[In2ition]

HUGE DEVELOPMENT: Hand Recount Finds Dominion Owned Voting Machines Shorted EVERY REPUBLICAN Candidate in Windham, New Hampshire, 300 Votes!
By Jim Hoft
Published February 10, 2021 at 3:21pm
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/0 ... 300-votes/

Here we go.
More proof of election fraud by Dominion Voting Machines.

A recent hand recount in the Rockingham District 7 NH House Race in Windham, New Hampshire, found that the Dominion-owned voting machines shorted EVERY REPUBLICAN by roughly 300 votes.

The Dominion machine counted results were wrong for all 4 Republicans by almost exactly 300 votes.

Granite Grok reported:

The Town of Windham used Dominion machines to count paper ballots and upon a believable hand recount, it was confirmed each Republican was machine-cheated out of roughly 300 votes.

You would think this would have been solved by the Dominion machine company, the Secretary of State, the Elections Unit of the AG’s Office, or the laughable Ballot Law Commission. (Kathy Sullivan, d (Term expires July 1, 2024)

Nope.
...

[Nodack]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gateway_Pundit
The Gateway Pundit (TGP) is an American far-right[2] fake news website.[1] The website is known for publishing falsehoods, hoaxes, and conspiracy theories.[21]

Founded by Jim Hoft in 2004, The Gateway Pundit expanded from a one-person enterprise into a multi-employee operation that is supported primarily by advertising revenue.[22][23] During the 2016 U.S. presidential campaign, the site received over a million unique visitors per day.[24] Twitter permanently suspended Hoft's account (@gatewaypundit) on February 6, 2021, for repeatedly publishing misinformation about the 2020 U.S. presidential election.[25][26][27]

[ShelC]

From what I can tell, those headlines and articles are either misleading or outright false and are most likely repeating old claims as clickbait.

Nowhere in any of the articles I've looked at found that any of the 177,000 of those removed voters voted in the 2020 election (much less voted for Biden). The 177k voters were removed, by law, because of things like not having voted for the past 6 years including the 2020 election or a change in address.

http://www.iosconews.com/news/state/art ... 734d6.html

The Bureau of Elections this week released a list of approximately 177,000 voter registrations slated for cancelation because the state believed the voter moved away from the registration address either because they surrendered a Michigan Driver’s License or had election mail returned undeliverable prior to the November 2018 election.

“The dismissal of this case is yet another example of a speculative claim and baseless allegations made during the 2020 election that ultimately proved unsustainable,” Nessel said in a statement.

“It was clear when the suit was filed in June of last year when federal law barred most voter-list maintenance, that this was a press release masquerading as a lawsuit filed to undermine public confidence in the integrity of our elections,” Benson said in a statement. “The suit prompted no action from us. As we have said publicly all along, strong voter registration rates and accurate voter rolls are good for democracy.”

The NH voting thing with Dominion has been disproven as well as far back as November when ballots were counted by hand with no results being changed. Dominion owns the IP, but doesn't own, manufacture or service the machines used for voting.

https://insidesources.com/nh-election-r ... vember-12/

In most recounts, ballots are counted that machines missed – ballots on which voters placed an ‘X’ over the circle, used another marking style, or circled the names of their preferred candidates. The machines, which are very reliable in New Hampshire, miss these un-ordinary markings.

[Indy]

those pesky facts, Shel.

[In2ition]

From what I can tell, those headlines and articles are either misleading or outright false and are most likely repeating old claims as clickbait.

Nowhere in any of the articles I've looked at found that any of the 177,000 of those removed voters voted in the 2020 election (much less voted for Biden). The 177k voters were removed, by law, because of things like not having voted for the past 6 years including the 2020 election or a change in address.

http://www.iosconews.com/news/state/art ... 734d6.html

The Bureau of Elections this week released a list of approximately 177,000 voter registrations slated for cancelation because the state believed the voter moved away from the registration address either because they surrendered a Michigan Driver’s License or had election mail returned undeliverable prior to the November 2018 election.

“The dismissal of this case is yet another example of a speculative claim and baseless allegations made during the 2020 election that ultimately proved unsustainable,” Nessel said in a statement.

“It was clear when the suit was filed in June of last year when federal law barred most voter-list maintenance, that this was a press release masquerading as a lawsuit filed to undermine public confidence in the integrity of our elections,” Benson said in a statement. “The suit prompted no action from us. As we have said publicly all along, strong voter registration rates and accurate voter rolls are good for democracy.”

The NH voting thing with Dominion has been disproven as well as far back as November when ballots were counted by hand with no results being changed. Dominion owns the IP, but doesn't own, manufacture or service the machines used for voting.

Yes, both sides are claiming victory. It's good that they cleaned these voter rolls up. Would them being cleaned up have changed the election, perhaps not. I think we all benefit from having clean and proper voting rolls.

https://insidesources.com/nh-election-r ... vember-12/

In most recounts, ballots are counted that machines missed – ballots on which voters placed an ‘X’ over the circle, used another marking style, or circled the names of their preferred candidates. The machines, which are very reliable in New Hampshire, miss these un-ordinary markings.

https://granitegrok.com/mg_windham/2020 ... -300-votes

[Update] Sources cite the possibility that roughly 300 voters chose to vote without wearing a mask so they were segregated when they voted. That these likely Republican voters were not crossed off the checklist and those ballots were never scanned.

[Update] Activists are pushing for a complete recount of the entire town to ensure the “error” is not limited to these statehouse races (and why would it?).
It's unfortunate that it took a hand count to figure out that votes were missing, and it seems folly that this couldn't happen elsewhere when very small amounts of precincts or counties actually do a hand recounts. Not even saying this is fraud, just saying that accurate counts needs to happen everywhere and the chance of mistakes or even the chance of possible fraud needs to be eliminated.

[Mori Chu]

I should just edit the site to block or autodelete posts that contain links to garbage like The Gateway Pundit. It's ridiculous that a bunch of intelligent people have to waste their time explaining and debunking their fake untrue content.

[In2ition]

You should lock down all sites or sources so that it only gives you the news you want to hear. Then make sure you take away access to this side of the forum from anyone that disagrees with you too. That way it will be a pristine forum for you and it will be a utopia. Ahhhhh, so lovely!

Seriously, you can do whatever you want, it's your site, Marty. I'm just a guest here.

[Indy]

We shouldn't block sites, but In2 you do know that Gateway Pundit is not a news source, right? They are literally fake news. That is their brand, and they cultivate it. It is just as relevant to post stuff from Onion and pretend it is real.

[In2ition]

We shouldn't block sites, but In2 you do know that Gateway Pundit is not a news source, right? They are literally fake news. That is their brand, and they cultivate it. It is just as relevant to post stuff from Onion and pretend it is real.

Negative, Indy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... the%20time.

[Indy]

Check again, unless you don't trust these right-leaning sources either (Oxford, Harvard Journal of Law):

https://oxford.universitypressscholarsh ... chapter-14

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=3647504

[ShelC]

You should lock down all sites or sources so that it only gives you the news you want to hear. Then make sure you take away access to this side of the forum from anyone that disagrees with you too. That way it will be a pristine forum for you and it will be a utopia. Ahhhhh, so lovely!

Seriously, you can do whatever you want, it's your site, Marty. I'm just a guest here.

For me, it's not about views I don't want to hear. I would just want to read and learn about views that are based on facts and reality. IMO, the far-right wing media doesn't operate in good faith on those terms and if we can't collectively agree on what actual facts are, we're just doomed as a nation (and eventually a planet). There aren't "alternative facts". There are facts. If one can make a credible and informed argument around those facts, I'm more than happy to listen and form an opinion. I may not agree with your opinion and interpretation of those facts, but at least we're starting from the same factual starting point. Now of course, the argument against that is, "Well what we do know what actual facts are?" and "All you do is get your 'facts' from MSM which can't be trusted." So we're back to square one.

[ShelC]

In2, I'll also point out the two articles you posted from The Gateway Pundit. You presented them (knowingly or innocently) in a "gotcha!" fashion, writing: "This isn't going away. Sorry" in big, bolded font. And while yes, 177k voters were removed from the voter rolls, as I pointed out from various credible news sources, none of those 177k voters voted in the 2020 election. The article itself never states that any of the 177k voted, but points out in the headline that Biden won by 154k votes, which presents things as if there was cheating going on. It's twisting facts around to create a misconception.

And while there was a lawsuit, it was essentially frivolous because the voter roll couldn't be purged until after a federal election, which is federal law. Again, that was verified by numerous credible sources. It was seemingly filed specifically to create suspicion around the voter rolls. It'd be like the Suns bringing 22 players into training camp and preseason on Sept 15th, needing to cut the roster down to 17 by Oct 15th prior to the start of the regular season. Mark Cuban files a complaint with the NBA on Sept 15th saying the Suns are carrying too many players, then withdraws the complaint on Oct 15th when the Suns make their cuts and have a roster of 17. The Suns did nothing wrong and have the correct number of players on their roster. Cuban "claims victory" saying they only did so because of his complaint. But is that really true?

Same thing with the NH vote count. It was debunked the 2nd week of November. A simple google search would've presented that info.

So when I read all of that, I think you're either knowingly posting/spreading false and misleading info, or you're falling for false and misleading info. Then, rather than saying, "You're right, sorry for posting an article with misleading info. I'll try and do better next time", you wrote "Both sides claim they won the lawsuit and we can agree we need accurate voter rolls", which is really just deflection.

I think doing individual research is essential in this day and age with so much content, news and stories coming out from all sides of the spectrum. But there can only be one set of facts and truth behind it. It can't be "Well I disagree with that so it's not true and I'm only to read and watch things I agree with and believe them". We're setting ourselves up for disaster in that case.

[Superbone]

Well said, Shel! Yeah, I'm not going to waste my time debunking ridiculous claims. It's just sad that they are out there and that people believe them. Critical thinking skills are very limited in today's culture. But alas, that's why we are where we are today. That's why there's something like QAnon.

[Mori Chu]

I really appreciate ShelC's clear and insightful post debunking the Gateway Pundit articles. But it's just so tiresome to have to do this over and over. We shouldn't bear the burden of constantly rebutting all of these junky fake articles from junky fake sites. Once we show that a site is clearly full of distortions and lies, you should stop posting links to that site. Gateway Pundit is not journalism and cannot be trusted. If you post anything from there, it is worthless and likely false and not worthy of investigation or rebuttal or debunking.

You should ask yourself what it is about you that causes you to continue to go to sites like this even after you have been clearly shown why they intentionally lied to you and manipulated you. What makes you still want to consume their content? Why not condemn them and refuse to give them your attention and your business?

[3rdside]

There’s a great quote from the philosopher Thomas Hobbes “when reason is against a man, a man will be against reason” which describes pretty well the feeling I get from the alt-right crowd.

I’ve got to ask In2 - if you have dyslexia, how do you bang out your posts so quickly and cleanly? Does it apply only to reading and not writing?

[In2ition]

You should lock down all sites or sources so that it only gives you the news you want to hear. Then make sure you take away access to this side of the forum from anyone that disagrees with you too. That way it will be a pristine forum for you and it will be a utopia. Ahhhhh, so lovely!

Seriously, you can do whatever you want, it's your site, Marty. I'm just a guest here.

For me, it's not about views I don't want to hear. I would just want to read and learn about views that are based on facts and reality. IMO, the far-right wing media doesn't operate in good faith on those terms and if we can't collectively agree on what actual facts are, we're just doomed as a nation (and eventually a planet). There aren't "alternative facts". There are facts. If one can make a credible and informed argument around those facts, I'm more than happy to listen and form an opinion. I may not agree with your opinion and interpretation of those facts, but at least we're starting from the same factual starting point. Now of course, the argument against that is, "Well what we do know what actual facts are?" and "All you do is get your 'facts' from MSM which can't be trusted." So we're back to square one.

IMO, the far left media doesn't operate in good faith on terms based on facts and reality either. I could give you many examples of high profile cases where that's taken place and you guys eat that stuff up like it's the gospel truth immediately. Yet, you haven't used those same critical thinking skills to disseminate them, because of why? Why is it you haven't discarded those news sources that lied to you and made some look like fools, and instead kept going back to them for more lies? Is it some appeal to authority? Have they been around too long? Are you beholden to the cable news sources, digital and print media for some other ideological reasons? When you've been lied to over and over and over, yet you still seem to feel like they are the "most trusted name in news" or some other false belief? I don't trust those, and try my best to disseminate between what I'm seeing and what is being reported, with a bent that I know there is a large amount of deception out there from both sides.

Shel, I get what you are saying, and I appreciate your concern. That being said, I don't believe that any of you are the authority to which one is considered "the facts" or not. I think you're all being a bit hypocritical here, but I get it. It's easy to dog pile on dissenting voice. You'll get a lot of other posters here patting you on the back. It's easy to stand behind all your brothers who just believe the same exact things as you. Does it take any courage to speak in general about the evil evil EVIL right-wing media on this forum? Some things from the left wing media I agree with, others I don't though. I think we all have to look at each piece that we are pushed and really figure out what is true and what is not true.

[In2ition]

In2, I'll also point out the two articles you posted from The Gateway Pundit. You presented them (knowingly or innocently) in a "gotcha!" fashion, writing: "This isn't going away. Sorry" in big, bolded font. And while yes, 177k voters were removed from the voter rolls, as I pointed out from various credible news sources, none of those 177k voters voted in the 2020 election. The article itself never states that any of the 177k voted, but points out in the headline that Biden won by 154k votes, which presents things as if there was cheating going on. It's twisting facts around to create a misconception.

First of all, it wasn't a "gotcha!" fashion in saying that this isn't going to go away anytime soon. I know you all want it to go away and everyone to stop talking about it, but it's just not going to any time soon, imo. You could even conclude that it's a fact that it's not going to. Second, the "big, bolded font." was just a way to disinquish the headline from the rest of the article. I was trying to somewhat following Nodack's format(which I thought was a good idea and format), except with the font size, of giving a little of the article instead of the link that would probably normally just be ignored. While I agree that headlines can be misleading, I wasn't going to rewrite the headline. Was the headline true, yes. Did it mislead some to believe that the election could have been overturned because of it, yes, I think that is true too. Everyone in this forum is smart enough to know that it's not going to be because of cleaning up the voter rolls after the election though, so the point seemed mute, imo.

[In2ition]

And while there was a lawsuit, it was essentially frivolous because the voter roll couldn't be purged until after a federal election, which is federal law. Again, that was verified by numerous credible sources. It was seemingly filed specifically to create suspicion around the voter rolls. It'd be like the Suns bringing 22 players into training camp and preseason on Sept 15th, needing to cut the roster down to 17 by Oct 15th prior to the start of the regular season. Mark Cuban files a complaint with the NBA on Sept 15th saying the Suns are carrying too many players, then withdraws the complaint on Oct 15th when the Suns make their cuts and have a roster of 17. The Suns did nothing wrong and have the correct number of players on their roster. Cuban "claims victory" saying they only did so because of his complaint. But is that really true?

The analogy is silly, and if anyone thought it was a good point or profound, I smh. You could argue that these voter rolls needed to be cleaned up well prior to the election and after the last election, but weren't. You could also argue that without the lawsuit, these voter rolls wouldn't have been cleaned up, because there would be no pressure to do so.