All Things Ayton

[Split T]

Split T wrote: ↑
I’m not underestimating the need for rebounding…it’s just one of the easiest skills to replace. We could sign a guy for the minimum to rebound. You don’t pay 35 million a year for rebounding.

JeremyG wrote:
If it’s that easy then why didn’t we do it in the last 3 years? It sure would have been nice to have another rebounder out there (especially at PF next to Ayton).

Because rebounding isn’t worth compromising spacing. Also we weren’t a bad rebounding team. We’ve been an above average rebounding team.

[Split T]

Split T wrote: ↑
Also fun fact, Nurkic is a better rebounder than Ayton. I’m not arguing for playing without a big man, just that we can use our resources better.

JeremyG wrote:
You’ve been arguing that you would do the trade even if Nurkic doesn’t play/comes off the bench/gets played off the floor in the playoffs.

Also fun fact: Nurkic has been in the league for 9 years and has only averaged double figures in rebounding in 3 seasons (one of which was an 8-game season!). As I’m sure you’re aware, Ayton has done it in 5 out of 5.

Yes I have been, but I’m not arguing to not a play a C at all, I’d play Eubanks.

As for the double digit rebounding…that’s meaningless. Ayton is a better overall player(I’m not arguing otherwise) so he played more minutes. Nurkic is a better rebounder though. Slightly, Ayton is a good rebounder too…he’s a great one when he’s engaged.

[Mori Chu]

The thing about these trades where we lose Ayton is, yeah, for most of the regular season, we don't really maximize the value of Ayton. But to win a title, we will have to go through teams like the Lakers (AD), Denver (Jokic), Milwaukee (Giannis), Philly (Embiid), and so on. Ayton lets us mostly cover those guys 1:1. Eubanks and Nurkic don't, not even close. I think the teams with the league's best bigs would give us a lot of trouble without a strong defensive big man like Ayton. You can say that Ayton's D has slipped, fine, but I am still generally very impressed by his ability to single-cover the best bigs in the NBA. That is quite valuable.

I generally like the OG/Nurk package. But do you guys really want to max out OG Anunoby? Really? If so, what exactly causes you to want to do that, when he'd be at best our 4th best player, and mostly redundant/overlapping with our other 3 best guys?

[Split T]

Did you watch our last series against Jokic and Giannis? Ayton did not successfully defend them 1 on 1. Give Ayton his props for 2021 on Jokic, but Jokic averaged 35/13/10 on 60/44/85 splits this last year.

Giannis was 35/13/5 on 62% shooting

[Superbone]

Did you watch our last series against Jokic and Giannis? Ayton did not successfully defend them 1 on 1. Give Ayton his props for 2021 on Jokic, but Jokic averaged 35/13/10 on 60/44/85 splits this last year.

Ayton was a non factor defensively last year in the playoffs. That has to change.

[JeremyG]

Id do a Ayton for Nurk/1 year OG rental. Book-Beal-OG-KD lineup when healthy, I just don’t know who beats that.

OGW?

She beat us every time during the Colangelo era (including the BC era).

During the Sarver era, she went away. Her interference was no longer needed since the franchise was adequately self sabotaging.

Now that Sarver is gone, she may return with a vengeance.

Dude. She gone. I know it's an adjustment but things are looking up.

Can someone please get me up to speed on this OGW thing? I’ve seen stuff about it over the years but don’t really know the story behind it.

I got you Jeremy.... "Old Gypsy Woman". It's a reference more to the suns being cursed and having to appease the "OGW" or she'll rear her ugly head.

Do we have an official file photo of the Old Gypsy Woman?

Thanks. I was thinking maybe it had something to do with the origin of the curse (for which I’ve heard several stories/theories I think).

[JeremyG]

Did you watch our last series against Jokic and Giannis? Ayton did not successfully defend them 1 on 1. Give Ayton his props for 2021 on Jokic, but Jokic averaged 35/13/10 on 60/44/85 splits this last year.

False. He averaged 57.5% FG the first 5 games, and 72.2% in Game 6 when Ayton was out—against Landale who you claim outplayed Ayton. I think that demonstrates Mori’s point nicely—even when his defense wasn’t as good, he can still at least guard Jokic solo and a run-of-the-mill center is going to do much worse. Just look at the result in Game 6 lol!

Giannis was 35/13/5 on 62% shooting

I don’t remember the exact numbers, but his shooting was significantly worse when defended by Ayton in that series.

[Split T]

Point is he couldn’t do it. He couldn’t stay on Giannis because he was in foul trouble. Yes Giannis did better against Crowder and Frank Kaminsky, he still produced against Ayton.

As for Jokic…Jokic missed a bunch of point blank put backs in game 1 that brought his percentage down. Games 2-5 with Ayton playing Jokic shot 60% from the field. Including a 53 point game on 67% shooting.

And the point isn’t whether he defended Jokic better than Jock…it’s whether he can defend him 1 on 1. He couldn’t.

Giving up 38 points on 60% shooting in games 2-5 is bad…real bad.

[JeremyG]

A 53-point game that we won…because of Ayton’s defense in the clutch.

Mori’s point was also that if we have a lesser big, we’re going to do worse against the best bigs like Jokic. That was proven true in Game 6.

But it’s also completely unrealistic to expect Ayton’s defense to not be better under Vogel lol.

[Split T]

Gambo is doubling down

[Split T]

A 53-point game that we won…because of Ayton’s defense in the clutch.

Mori’s point was also that if we have a lesser big, we’re going to do worse against the best bigs like Jokic. That was proven true in Game 6.

But it’s also completely unrealistic to expect Ayton’s defense to not be better under Vogel lol.

Ayton did have a couple nice defensive plays but we won that game because of Book. With Durant and then Shamet getting the next claims

[Split T]

[Shabazz]

There are ~10 centers who are worse that DA but a better fit that I would take over Nurkic.

[Split T]

How many of them are available though?

[TOO]

Fit and saving money. Nurkic doesn't need to be coddled and isn't gonna demand shots, he's also half the price. Yes Ayton is better, but the Suns don't need him to be better, he needs to fill a role that he seemingly thinks he's above. They will never get equal value on talent, th contract and his play have ruined that.

[Shabazz]

How many of them are available though?

No reason to take a bad deal just because it's the only one on the table. Go into the season with Ayton and then when the right opportunity presents itself - pounce.

Also, are we doing our due diligence? Would Atlanta not say yes to Ayton for Capela? Washington for Gafford? Clippers for Zu? I'd rather any of those guys than Nurkic, along with Time Lord, Jarret Allen, Mitch Rob, Myles Turner, WCJ, Mark Williams and Jonas V.

[ShelC]

Figured I'd get flamed a bit for this and it's not an apples to apples comp but I've looked at it similarly in terms of fit vs talent. And because of that, I keep coming back to the Rubio v TJ Warren move we made and got killed for at the time. Everyone questioned how we could give away a 20pt scorer in TJ just to free up space and basically give that money to Rubio? But we needed Rubio's skillset at point more than we needed TJ's 20ppg at the SF spot. And similarly, Rubio was older and had injury concerns when we signed him. Maybe Jones is looking at it the same way. It's a talent downgrade overall, but a better fit.

[TOO]

Here's the thing, if the guys know it's not gonna fit, you can't just go into the season trying to make it work. The sooner you fix your issue the better.

[ShelC]

Here's the thing, if the guys know it's not gonna fit, you can't just go into the season trying to make it work. The sooner you fix your issue the better.

Also don't think Jones wants to make a big move like that midyear again. Assuming one is there to be made midyear.

[Flagrant Fowl]

There has to be someone with Nurkic and I'm reserving judgement until we know who it is. However, I will admit my bar is pretty low for what I'll be comfortable accepting. It pretty much just needs to be a starter worthy player like TJ McConnell or Caleb Martin, or obviously better than them.