All Things Ayton

[Superbone]

For those keeping score at home, here are the 2023-24 stats so far:

Deandre Ayton: 11.4 ppg on 57.9% FG; 12.9 reb; 1.4 ast; 1.0 blk; 2.0 stl; 1.8 TO; 3.2 pf
Jusuf Nurkic: 10.5 ppg on 40.0% FG (!); 9.4 reb; 4.8 ast (!); 1.0 blk; 1.5 stl; 2.1 TO; 4.5 pf (!)

It's a small sample. But I think you can see already that Nurkic is a MUCH better passer than DA, and also not as efficient in shooting, and also more foul-prone. I think that would be expected given their careers to date. Overall I'm pretty pleased with Nurkic given that he's half the price, a better chemistry fit, a better screener and passer, and came with Grayson Allen who has also been great for us.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... nde01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... iju01.html

(edited to add steals and turnovers)

It wasn't a one for one trade. If you're going to compare stats, you should include Grayson Allen's and Camara's in there too.

[specialsauce]

“Ayton has to have an elite PG to create the perfect shots for him and spoon feed him.”

No Scoot. No Brogdon. No problem.

Scores 8 straight points for the Blazers in the clutch (including a 6-0 run by himself) to get his team to OT.

He scored 18 points in an OT game where Grant had to score 40 to give them a chance. Give me a break

[Split T]

I only watched the end…the offense was a mess for Portland, but they were missing most of their shot creators. Was just the Jerami Grant show…Ayton was mostly invisible, but I’m not sure it was his fault in this one. He would come up to set a ball screen and they’d often waive him off and send him back to the dunker spot or to set an off ball screen for someone else.

It seems that so far he’s even less involved in the offense than he was here.

Ayton carried the offense in the clutch in the 4th quarter to get them to OT (8 straight points and 8 of their final 10 points in the last 4 minutes).

I only watched OT

[JeremyG]

“Ayton has to have an elite PG to create the perfect shots for him and spoon feed him.”

No Scoot. No Brogdon. No problem.

Scores 8 straight points for the Blazers in the clutch (including a 6-0 run by himself) to get his team to OT.

He scored 18 points in an OT game where Grant had to score 40 to give them a chance. Give me a break

He can't pass himself the ball. If they had kept going to Ayton in OT instead of Grant (2-6), they would have won.

[Split T]

Grant went and got the ball…That’s just not who Ayton is…the big gaping chasm between you and most of us really comes down to this. The fact Ayton needs someone to pass him the ball is why most of us think he’s not a max player. You don’t see that as Ayton’s problem but as his teammate's problem. That’s a fundamental difference and unless that changes, we will never see eye to eye on this.

[JeremyG]

Ayton only had one attempt in OT and it's been ruled that he was fouled by Sabonis like he thought: https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport. ... 0022300170

[Split T]

They still scored on the play so it didn’t hurt them

[specialsauce]

“Ayton has to have an elite PG to create the perfect shots for him and spoon feed him.”

No Scoot. No Brogdon. No problem.

Scores 8 straight points for the Blazers in the clutch (including a 6-0 run by himself) to get his team to OT.

He scored 18 points in an OT game where Grant had to score 40 to give them a chance. Give me a break

He can't pass himself the ball. If they had kept going to Ayton in OT instead of Grant (2-6), they would have won.

So how many minutes does the puss have to play to score 20 points? I thought you said 36

[carey]

It is the year of our lord 2028.

"He can't pass himself the ball."

It is the year of our lord 2036.

"He can't pass himself the ball."

[carey]

Ayton only had one attempt in OT and it's been ruled that he was fouled by Sabonis like he thought: https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport. ... 0022300170

Is 41 minutes without a free throw attempt a record for a center?

[Kryptonic]

It is the year of our lord 2028.

"He can't pass himself the ball."

It is the year of our lord 2036.

"He can't pass himself the ball."

[Superbone]

It is the year of our lord 2028.

"He can't pass himself the ball."

It is the year of our lord 2036.

"He can't pass himself the ball."

This gives me an idea...

[JeremyG]

Grant went and got the ball…That’s just not who Ayton is…the big gaping chasm between you and most of us really comes down to this. The fact Ayton needs someone to pass him the ball is why most of us think he’s not a max player. You don’t see that as Ayton’s problem but as his teammate's problem. That’s a fundamental difference and unless that changes, we will never see eye to eye on this.

I thought the criticism was that he doesn’t dribble or create his own shot (which he did a lot of last night).

Now it’s that he doesn’t “go and get the ball.” What does that even mean?

Did Shaq “go and get the ball”? Did Duncan “go and get the ball”? Dwight Howard? LaMarcus Aldridge? Anthony Davis?

"Davis is not a max player because he plays in the post and needs someone to pass him the ball." Ridiculous.

[Superbone]

The greats DEMAND the ball. The others just pout about it.

[Split T]

Grant went and got the ball…That’s just not who Ayton is…the big gaping chasm between you and most of us really comes down to this. The fact Ayton needs someone to pass him the ball is why most of us think he’s not a max player. You don’t see that as Ayton’s problem but as his teammate's problem. That’s a fundamental difference and unless that changes, we will never see eye to eye on this.

I thought the criticism was that he doesn’t dribble or create his own shot (which he did a lot of last night).

Now it’s that he doesn’t “go and get the ball.” What does that even mean?

Did Shaq “go and get the ball”? Did Duncan “go and get the ball”? Dwight Howard? LaMarcus Aldridge? Anthony Davis?

"Davis is not a max player because he plays in the post and needs someone to pass him the ball." Ridiculous.

I was simply stating why Ayton didn’t get any more shots in OT. Jerami Grant would literally go up near the ball handler and get the ball. I’m not saying Ayton should do that, that’s clearly not his game. Just an observation of why he didn’t get shots.

I should have made a separate paragraph for my next point. We just have different beliefs on what we expect basketball to be played like. You keep bringing up these players from past eras where basketball was inefficient as examples of how we should use Ayton. Duncan and Aldridge would have to play differently today. They’d be inefficient bigs. Even Shaq would’ve been just average in efficiency. A good modern team would beat a Shaq led offense of the 2000’s. No one would let Aldridge or Duncan just take midrange shots as the foundation of their offense. There is a reason offenses stopped doing that.

Dwight and AD are basically the best case scenario situations for a big that can’t really create their own shot that well. Dwight was great when he stuck to being just a finisher on the roll. It was when he wanted post touches that he was meh. AD is also at his best just being a finisher. Both are much more aggressive than Ayton and also are both generational defensive talents. Ayton was never close to them as defenders.

There is basically 3 paths to efficient offense as a big:

1. Shoot 3s(KAT, Turner, KP, Lopez)
2. Draw fouls(Embiid, Giannis)
3. Finish at the rim(Rudy, Ayton, Capela, Duren)

There is a 4th type of big and that’s the offensive hub big(Jokic, Sabonis, Bam)

I really don’t know what you want Ayton to be. Ya he could be Aldridge and score 20 points if they let him shoot 12 midrange shots a game, but he’d be wildly inefficient for todays game. You can try to get the ball into him deeper in the post and he might be a little more efficient, but he still doesn’t draw fouls and it’s much more difficult and takes a lot of time to do that. You’re having to build an offense around it.

Vucevic is the one modern big that’s been mentioned by you as a pathway for Ayton to being a 20 point scorer. Ayton would absolute need to shoot 3s for that. Ayton definitely came to the nba in the wrong era. He would’ve been a much better player in the 90’s or 2000’s when inefficient offense ruled the league.

[iLLmatic]

Split you are a saint.

[Flagrant Fowl]

At least someone is paying attention to how the game is played today.

[specialsauce]

He’d get clobbered in the 90s and 2000s. What are you talking about.

He has old man talent with new kid toughness. He’s average in every era

[Kryptonic]

Split you are a saint.

100%

[Split T]

He’d get clobbered in the 90s and 2000s. What are you talking about.

He has old man talent with new kid toughness. He’s average in every era

Maybe late 2000’s, early 2010’s before Curry broke the game. I think he could’ve been LaMarcus Aldridge