Phx-Suns.Net

pickle wrote:I respectfully disagree. It's one thing if you are Ricky Davis shooting at your own basket to get a triple double. It's one thing if you are losing to someone by 20 and they run up the score because they can. The Suns are in a unique situation where the team is clearly not going anywhere and the string of losses and injuries/personnel management probably didn't leave anybody particularly happy. We aren't the Kings but we have our share of problems (even if I always advocate patience I'm not blind to what's going on). Under that context, and given that they won the game, I really don't see any reason why they can't be happy for a young man who made this otherwise meaningless game memorable for himself and the fans. Even with this scoring record nobody would mistake the Suns for contenders so IT's comment is particularly idiotic to me. If you really are that worried about the playoffs then why do you have more energy to waste on how a bottom dwelling team chooses to find the positives in their season? And for Crowder, if you are a winner then why would you bother replying to the post of a group of people you consider losers? Could you not take a cue from the garden crowd who was cheering every Booker shot after about the midway point of the fourth? To be a great competitor you are supposed to get angry when you lose as a team not when someone puts up a good stat and perhaps outshined you personally. Besides, as Booker stated so eloquently, you can't guard him.

You respectfully disagree that people should be upset when they get 70 points dropped on them? I am not saying they handled it well, but they have every right to be upset about their crowd cheering for the opposition, and that opposition scoring in a historic fashion on you.

Cap wrote:

Indy wrote:

pickle wrote:I had to defend the Suns and Booker in several chat groups on instant messaging today, and I'm here to vent. People are so stupid. I probably can't score 70 points one on zero in a gym by myself, and I'm pretty sure most guys who complain about this can't do the same one on zero on 40 shots and 24 free throws. So what if we intentionally fouled twice to add two possessions? He still actually had to make those shots right? So what if we did this in a losing effort? The team is not in a good place right now and the young kids need something positive to hang their hat on. Very disappointed in Crowder and Thomas. The Boston Garden fans had class. Enjoy a good moment and celebrate when you can. Don't become a grouchy old man before you turn 30, Jae and Isaiah.

To be fair to Crowder and IT, you should be pissed if an opponent drops 70 on you. And you should be upset that the crowd was cheering him on. That doesn't mean you don't do what the crowd did. Of course you do. But you have every right to be upset if you are a Celtic player.

Some of our own players have been known to have inappropriate angry outbursts directed at opponents when they don't like how things are going, and they don't always wait until the game is over.

It's a normal human response when you're a very competitive person and adrenaline is running high.

You couldn't be talking about the kid that scored 70, right?

And in that case I would find our own players immature and be disappointed in them too. Doesn't mean that I'm not gonna call out those two guys for their behavior.

Indy wrote:

pickle wrote:I respectfully disagree. It's one thing if you are Ricky Davis shooting at your own basket to get a triple double. It's one thing if you are losing to someone by 20 and they run up the score because they can. The Suns are in a unique situation where the team is clearly not going anywhere and the string of losses and injuries/personnel management probably didn't leave anybody particularly happy. We aren't the Kings but we have our share of problems (even if I always advocate patience I'm not blind to what's going on). Under that context, and given that they won the game, I really don't see any reason why they can't be happy for a young man who made this otherwise meaningless game memorable for himself and the fans. Even with this scoring record nobody would mistake the Suns for contenders so IT's comment is particularly idiotic to me. If you really are that worried about the playoffs then why do you have more energy to waste on how a bottom dwelling team chooses to find the positives in their season? And for Crowder, if you are a winner then why would you bother replying to the post of a group of people you consider losers? Could you not take a cue from the garden crowd who was cheering every Booker shot after about the midway point of the fourth? To be a great competitor you are supposed to get angry when you lose as a team not when someone puts up a good stat and perhaps outshined you personally. Besides, as Booker stated so eloquently, you can't guard him.

You respectfully disagree that people should be upset when they get 70 points dropped on them? I am not saying they handled it well, but they have every right to be upset about their crowd cheering for the opposition, and that opposition scoring in a historic fashion on you.

Of course these guys have the right to feel whatever they feel. I respectfully disagree that their final behavior, whatever the reasoning, is justified. They should have handled this situation with more class.

pickle wrote:

Indy wrote:

pickle wrote:I respectfully disagree. It's one thing if you are Ricky Davis shooting at your own basket to get a triple double. It's one thing if you are losing to someone by 20 and they run up the score because they can. The Suns are in a unique situation where the team is clearly not going anywhere and the string of losses and injuries/personnel management probably didn't leave anybody particularly happy. We aren't the Kings but we have our share of problems (even if I always advocate patience I'm not blind to what's going on). Under that context, and given that they won the game, I really don't see any reason why they can't be happy for a young man who made this otherwise meaningless game memorable for himself and the fans. Even with this scoring record nobody would mistake the Suns for contenders so IT's comment is particularly idiotic to me. If you really are that worried about the playoffs then why do you have more energy to waste on how a bottom dwelling team chooses to find the positives in their season? And for Crowder, if you are a winner then why would you bother replying to the post of a group of people you consider losers? Could you not take a cue from the garden crowd who was cheering every Booker shot after about the midway point of the fourth? To be a great competitor you are supposed to get angry when you lose as a team not when someone puts up a good stat and perhaps outshined you personally. Besides, as Booker stated so eloquently, you can't guard him.

You respectfully disagree that people should be upset when they get 70 points dropped on them? I am not saying they handled it well, but they have every right to be upset about their crowd cheering for the opposition, and that opposition scoring in a historic fashion on you.

Of course these guys have the right to feel whatever they feel. I respectfully disagree that their final behavior, whatever the reasoning, is justified. They should have handled this situation with more class.

I didn't see the interview with IT; I only read the quote. Is it classless to point out we suck and they good? It didn't seem too inflammatory to me. If you mean the trash talking at the end of the game, I am sure it is pretty on par for most games/players.

It should be fun playing the Celtics next year. Hopefully, the Suns aren't tanking anymore and have made significant improvement and growth to back up taking the Celtics best shot. I know this is unrealistic, but I would love to see Booker go for 80 against them next year and get a win.

As long as we're not being realistic, I'd love to see him go for 101. And 39 rebounds, 31 assists, 18 blocks and 12 steals. In 70 minutes. Then we lose on a bullshit call at the end of the 6th OT.

Cap wrote:As long as we're not being realistic, I'd love to see him go for 101. And 39 rebounds, 31 assists, 18 blocks and 12 steals. In 70 minutes. Then we lose on a bullshit call at the end of the 6th OT.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:I honestly dont get the Watson hate, I really dont. The players seem to like him, play hard, sure he needs work on his rotations and play calls, but he's learning on the job. I swear people only hate him because the UA fans wanted their boy Walton.

I am critical of him because he's winning percentage is sub .300 and it appears for most of the season he was really trying to win. I'm not holding any losses against him after the ASB because it's what the doctor ordered. But he mostly has looked in over his head and his methods have not really translated into anything other than the players generally behaving and wanting to stick around. Which is not an awful thing but hopefully it will translate into attracting talent when it comes to future free agents. I like that he stuck up from Booker and we all have a warm fuzzy feeling about it still. He will (and should) be under the microscope next season. Going to take more steps in the right direction for me to be a Watson fan.

Watson has been decent once we got to the point in the season that we had absolutely no expectations or standards of any kind.

Agreed. We had talent on the roster this season, which cannot be denied and he was thoroughly outcoached and overmatched. I still view him as more of a cheerleader and less of a technical Xs and Os strategist. And the cheerleaders always get exposed.

I don't think Mike D was a great X's and O's coach, but what he did have is a way for the guys to play fast and faster and it was a brand of basketball that was enjoyable to watch. Having Len set most of the picks, when they have no intention on hitting him for the pick and pop, or pick and slip or pick and roll. And if they do, we have no expectation that he will make them pay consistently. All this while all 3 other players just stand around on the perimeter waiting to see what happens. I want to see something fast, unpredictable and efficient.

When Watson was actually trying to win, he was trotting out a team of mismatched veterans and strange rotations. He had no discernable ability to call plays, use timeouts carefully, sub in a player to exploit a mismatch, run a play to get a good shot at the end of the game. We had no detectable organization on offense or defense. Multiple players didn't know what their roles were. We lost a large number of close, winnable games due to boneheaded play.

Then suddenly once we completely gave up all hope for the season, and on top of that, once management came to Watson and literally told him he must play the young guys and bench the useless vets, suddenly Watson is a genius? Sorry, no. We still aren't winning games, but we're just losing in a more "fun" and "young" way. Watson gets a little bit of credit for keeping the guys in good spirits and keeping them playing hard, but that is like the minimum lowest bar for a coach.

I have never seen him do anything during a game that I would describe as clever or savvy. I would see little smart plays or moves from Mike D and Alvin Gentry all the time, like where we'd call a timeout and coming out of that timeout we'd get a sneaky Marion back-door alleyoop dunk or a wide open 3 or whatever. They understood how to coach a team. Watson is a cheerleader, a babysitter. He understands what it's like to be a player, he can relate to them, he can encourage them. He's a good motivator. Treating them as a "family" sounds like hollow cheesy BS, but I give him credit for making the guys feel comfortable and bringing them together. And he has now given young guys lots of minutes, which is great. But he is completely mediocre and replaceable as an actual coach. A guy like Watson makes a great assistant, I think, but not a head coach.

I really want to see us look for a more strategic coach in the offseason, preferably one with an actual system and actual offense who can draw up plays. No more of this cheerleader stuff.

once management came to Watson and literally told him he must play the young guys and bench the useless vets

It sounds like you are assuming management only stepped in after the all-star break, but weren't telling him what to do the first 2/3 of the season. Any evidence or reason why you think they only meddled then?

Also, where did you read that multiple guys didn't know their role this year?

I really want to see us look for a more strategic coach in the offseason

We didn't give him a 3 year contract to fire him 1 year in.

He'll be here another year for "development". No point paying a high(er) level coach to win 30 games. Make sure guys like TJ, Chriss and Bender are getting their 25+ mpg, our rookie is making progress and our vets are happy and willing to babysit.

I hope that we don't have to sit through another season of babysitting and can take the leap up in the standings and competitive enough to attempt to go for the playoffs. I guess I hope that the Suns have the future core studs on the roster by next season. I tend to agree with ShelC though. On another note, give Watson some time, as it takes time for new coaches to get their feet under them and hit their stride sometimes. He's a bit of a rookie himself right now. I'm not a huge fan, but know from experience that it doesn't happen immediately.

This team is full of young adults, I dont know why people expected some sort of playoff push. No coach is gonna do better with a team that has no clue how to win. Sure PJ/Chandler/Duds are nice vet leaders, but they certainly arent gonna make the difference for a team with no shooting, who cant defend, and was stuck with a PG who has no idea how to be a PG. Blame Watson all you want, this still falls on McD and his poorly built roster.

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:When Watson was actually trying to win, he was trotting out a team of mismatched veterans and strange rotations. He had no discernable ability to call plays, use timeouts carefully, sub in a player to exploit a mismatch, run a play to get a good shot at the end of the game. We had no detectable organization on offense or defense. Multiple players didn't know what their roles were. We lost a large number of close, winnable games due to boneheaded play.

Then suddenly once we completely gave up all hope for the season, and on top of that, once management came to Watson and literally told him he must play the young guys and bench the useless vets, suddenly Watson is a genius? Sorry, no. We still aren't winning games, but we're just losing in a more "fun" and "young" way. Watson gets a little bit of credit for keeping the guys in good spirits and keeping them playing hard, but that is like the minimum lowest bar for a coach.

I have never seen him do anything during a game that I would describe as clever or savvy. I would see little smart plays or moves from Mike D and Alvin Gentry all the time, like where we'd call a timeout and coming out of that timeout we'd get a sneaky Marion back-door alleyoop dunk or a wide open 3 or whatever. They understood how to coach a team. Watson is a cheerleader, a babysitter. He understands what it's like to be a player, he can relate to them, he can encourage them. He's a good motivator. Treating them as a "family" sounds like hollow cheesy BS, but I give him credit for making the guys feel comfortable and bringing them together. And he has now given young guys lots of minutes, which is great. But he is completely mediocre and replaceable as an actual coach. A guy like Watson makes a great assistant, I think, but not a head coach.

I really want to see us look for a more strategic coach in the offseason, preferably one with an actual system and actual offense who can draw up plays. No more of this cheerleader stuff.

I don't know where the genius comment came from... I think that there are some supporters for Watson in this group, roughly divided into two categories. Category one, he's unproven but his family/love stuff is a positive for chemistry so let's give him a chance; category two, he's not ideal, but if we got rid of him we'd just get someone equally bad and go through this all over again. Nobody is disillusioned enough in their support for Watson to think that he's basketball jesus.

And on a separate note, if my head coach can only have one of two traits, one being good chemistry/atmosphere guy and the other being Xs and Os and by having one he must suck at the other, then I'd rather he be good at chemistry, commands the respect of his players, rather than be an Xs and Os genius but the players hate his guts. Not that I'm saying Watson is the answer.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:This team is full of young adults, I dont know why people expected some sort of playoff push. No coach is gonna do better with a team that has no clue how to win. Sure PJ/Chandler/Duds are nice vet leaders, but they certainly arent gonna make the difference for a team with no shooting, who cant defend, and was stuck with a PG who has no idea how to be a PG. Blame Watson all you want, this still falls on McD and his poorly built roster.

MCD has loaded this team with young talent which is what you are supposed to do when rebuilding. He drafted a young man at #13 who just dropped 70. I cannot believe people are complaining about him. What do you want? Bryan Colangelo? This isn't time yet to put together a championship roster. We are still trying to gather a core of stars.

Meanwhile. Does Watson even have an offensive philosophy? He is good with the family, locker room unity stuff. But he talked defense big time at the beginning of the year and he still has one of the worst defensive teams in history. I get it. We are tanking and his vet players are sitting. But good grief, people should be singing McD's praises not ripping him.

Praise McD because he got a few draft picks right? What about signing Chandler and further stunting Lens playing time and development? Extending Bledsoe, extending Knight? The Dragic/Thomas fiasco? He's drafted well, Booker looks to be the face of the franchise in the future, but lets not act like he's done wonders. He built this mess of a team, not Watson.