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Split T wrote:I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Split T wrote:I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

O_Gardino wrote:

Split T wrote:I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

O_Gardino wrote:

Split T wrote:I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

O_Gardino wrote:

Split T wrote:I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:That OKC team has a pretty paranoid level of protection around its players to keep the media away from them. They have the local hoops media scared to write anything negative about the team or any of the players.

Indy wrote:Keep in mind that the team is fostering that. You don't become that way without enablers all around you.

The situation in OKC reminds me of a ted talk on what makes successful teams. It's been a while since I listened to it, but here was my takeaway:

Basically, she and her team did a big study looking for stars in the business world, and they found that business teams that had a "star culture" for their best or specially talented people weren't very successful. Successful business teams took more of a flat culture approach, where everyone is just part of the group and people help each other out despite perceived talent differences. What's really interesting is that they thought there must be some need for star culture in businesses where there really are stars. So they studied Hollywood and found the same results. Despite one or two of the actors being actual stars, shows were more successful when everyone was treated as a person, and (at least internally) nobody was treated as a Star or a Scrub.

IMO, you can see the same thing with the Spurs and Patriots. And OKC seems to me to be the team that embraced star culture.

It would be interesting to look at the best way to keep "stars" in mid-market teams, too. I know everyone points to San Antonio as the prime example of how it can be done, but really they started off the Duncan era (the last 18 years) with a championship his 2nd year, and that goes a long way to keeping people. And obviously the "star" treatment in OKC didn't keep Durant...

Superbone wrote:

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:That OKC team has a pretty paranoid level of protection around its players to keep the media away from them. They have the local hoops media scared to write anything negative about the team or any of the players.

Indy wrote:Keep in mind that the team is fostering that. You don't become that way without enablers all around you.

The situation in OKC reminds me of a ted talk on what makes successful teams. It's been a while since I listened to it, but here was my takeaway:

Basically, she and her team did a big study looking for stars in the business world, and they found that business teams that had a "star culture" for their best or specially talented people weren't very successful. Successful business teams took more of a flat culture approach, where everyone is just part of the group and people help each other out despite perceived talent differences. What's really interesting is that they thought there must be some need for star culture in businesses where there really are stars. So they studied Hollywood and found the same results. Despite one or two of the actors being actual stars, shows were more successful when everyone was treated as a person, and (at least internally) nobody was treated as a Star or a Scrub.

IMO, you can see the same thing with the Spurs and Patriots. And OKC seems to me to be the team that embraced star culture.

It would be interesting to look at the best way to keep "stars" in mid-market teams, too. I know everyone points to San Antonio as the prime example of how it can be done, but really they started off the Duncan era (the last 18 years) with a championship his 2nd year, and that goes a long way to keeping people. And obviously the "star" treatment in OKC didn't keep Durant...

Depends a lot on the personel too. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili didn't need the star treatment and were willing to take less money to stay together and keep their dynasty going.

Indy wrote:

Superbone wrote:

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:That OKC team has a pretty paranoid level of protection around its players to keep the media away from them. They have the local hoops media scared to write anything negative about the team or any of the players.

Indy wrote:Keep in mind that the team is fostering that. You don't become that way without enablers all around you.

The situation in OKC reminds me of a ted talk on what makes successful teams. It's been a while since I listened to it, but here was my takeaway:

Basically, she and her team did a big study looking for stars in the business world, and they found that business teams that had a "star culture" for their best or specially talented people weren't very successful. Successful business teams took more of a flat culture approach, where everyone is just part of the group and people help each other out despite perceived talent differences. What's really interesting is that they thought there must be some need for star culture in businesses where there really are stars. So they studied Hollywood and found the same results. Despite one or two of the actors being actual stars, shows were more successful when everyone was treated as a person, and (at least internally) nobody was treated as a Star or a Scrub.

IMO, you can see the same thing with the Spurs and Patriots. And OKC seems to me to be the team that embraced star culture.

It would be interesting to look at the best way to keep "stars" in mid-market teams, too. I know everyone points to San Antonio as the prime example of how it can be done, but really they started off the Duncan era (the last 18 years) with a championship his 2nd year, and that goes a long way to keeping people. And obviously the "star" treatment in OKC didn't keep Durant...

Depends a lot on the personel too. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili didn't need the star treatment and were willing to take less money to stay together and keep their dynasty going.

After they already won rings though.

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Split T wrote:I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

I think you could say that any team built around a single guy holding the ball much more than anyone else is not built for success. I would love to see the stats posted for that, but I doubt we have any of that data before SportsVue.

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Split T wrote:I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

I think you could say that any team built around a single guy holding the ball much more than anyone else is not built for success. I would love to see the stats posted for that, but I doubt we have any of that data before SportsVue.

Yeah, exactly.

Superbone wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Split T wrote:I posted that Rondo is really the only one since Isaiah Thomas and Magic. I guess Kidd eventually won, but he was just a role player.

Everybody on that team was a role player - even Dirk. Dirk only shot the ball 16 times a game on that team.

And what about Jason Williams who won with the Heat? He was a pass first guy (sort of).

I don't think it's about having a pass-first PG vs a scoring pg. I think it's about having a team where creating offense isn't just on one guy. If you have one guy doing everything, he'd better be one of the top 10 guys to ever play the game, and even then you have to teach him to trust and involve his teammates. That was the problem with Nash and Kidd in their primes. They had the ball too much.

In my very humble opinion.

I think you could say that any team built around a single guy holding the ball much more than anyone else is not built for success. I would love to see the stats posted for that, but I doubt we have any of that data before SportsVue.

Yeah, exactly.

Unfortunately, Bledsoe comes to mind.

Split T wrote:2nd on rockets is Beverly with 3.0 minutes per game. 2nd for okc is Semaj Christon at 2.7

Split T wrote:This is the best I can find. Harden leads the league with 9 minutes spent with the ball in his hand. 8.9 minutes each for Westbrook and Wall. Data only goes back to 13-14, but other players who hit 8.0 at some point are Lillard, Kemba Walker, Chris Paul, and Isaiah Thomas. Bledsoe was at 6.7 this year.

http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#! ... r%20Season


2nd on rockets is Beverly with 3.0 minutes per game. 2nd for okc is Semaj Christon at 2.7

carey wrote:

Split T wrote:2nd on rockets is Beverly with 3.0 minutes per game. 2nd for okc is Semaj Christon at 2.7