SL Game Day: Suns (1-0) @ Mavs (1-0), Sun 7/9/17

[Big Jake Little Jake]

Actually, I take back calling out Q (though I still remember him missing more open 3's than he had the rest of the season). I just looked up the stats to the series, because I'm bored at work and sad to be away from summer league, and forgot how completely horrible Marion played. His rebounding was fine at 10 a game, but he averaged 7pts on an abysmal 39%. He only took 7 threes and made 1, so it wasn't entirely the long ball that did him in. Kinda forgot that was a huge knock on him for awhile - he disappeared in the playoffs.

Going through some PTSD reliving this shit...

[O_Gardino]

Joe Johnson was FAR superior to anyone we had on the bench that year. I think we had a chance that year.

[Big Jake Little Jake]

We lost Game 1 against the Spurs by 7 with less that 36 hours rest coming off a Game 6 win vs the Mavs that went to OT and lost Game 2 by 3pts. Game 3 we ran out of gas but Game 4 JJ came back and we won. JJ, broken face wearing a mask, was making Bowen fall down on D. I think we'd have taken them.

Good memory. I'm sure that was at least somewhat of a factor. I also seem to remember some awful calls in game 1, but who knows. The Spurs always had our number so it's hard to play the what-if game too much.

[ShelC]

Shawn was less effective because the Spurs found him in transition, slowed Nash down with Bowen riding his hip up court and Q was less effective because they just ran him off the 3pt line, not unlike Raja later on.

[Big Jake Little Jake]

Shawn was less effective because the Spurs found him in transition, slowed Nash down with Bowen riding his hip up court and Q was less effective because they just ran him off the 3pt line, not unlike Raja later on.

"Riding his hip" is a very kind way to put it.

[EDC]

100 million dollars for one more great year before he blew his knees again? Are you kidding me? Did you read Mori's post? How can you be okay with that after seeing his health decline immediately after signing that max contract?

It isn't you paying the money why are you so concerned? Here we are 7 years later and we haven't touched the playoffs and it doesn't look like it is going to happen anytime soon. I just don't see how you can look at the garbage we have been these past 7 years and think well I'm real happy we didn't keep together our playoff team when we had it.
Whats even worse is quoting money as the reason why. Especially when we are looking back.

Good thing we dodged the bullet of signing Amare to that 100 million dollar contract. Just think how awful that would have been if he would have gotten injured after one good year and then we would have been garbage for the next 4 years. I would take 1 good year and 6 bad over 7 bad and no the one year we exceeded expectations is not considered good compared to Nash/Amare good.

I think it just proves the point of how Amare is viewed around here, by some people, when we look back at how he played those 5 years and we look at the garbage we instead spent that money on and people still say "Hands down it was for sure the right thing to do not signing him". People actually prefer Childress and Turkoglu.

As for those that argue it was the right decision at the time. I think it can be argued but can't be said definitively. Yes it was a risk to tie up all our caps space but on the other hand we were a championship contender with Nash and Amare. Do you take a gamble on his knees hoping we can finally break through or do we just scrap it all and pray that some other big name free agent will sign with us.

I still feel that people thought you could stick any 4 players around Nash and he would take them deep into the playoffs. That Amare wasn't needed and if we could just get someone who could play some defense we could go farther without him. Nash was a great player and Amare was a great player. Together they were insane. We threw that away and seven years later we are still bad.

[BlaCkAdDa]

Hooray! Let's rehash 2010!

(I approved of the trading away / letting go of all of Marion, Amare, and Nash. I didn't even mind Shaq being on the team. And we got a handsome haul for Nash. I don't like what we did with the cap space freed up by letting Amare go, but that is a completely separate issue.)

Agree with all the above.. I was keen to keep amare at the time.. But it's the additions that have hurt us more than subtractions

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[BlaCkAdDa]

And the coaching moves :/

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[JCSunsfan]

Hooray! Let's rehash 2010!

(I approved of the trading away / letting go of all of Marion, Amare, and Nash. I didn't even mind Shaq being on the team. And we got a handsome haul for Nash. I don't like what we did with the cap space freed up by letting Amare go, but that is a completely separate issue.)

Agree with all the above.. I was keen to keep amare at the time.. But it's the additions that have hurt us more than subtractions

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What a list of names that is. Names that were not a help, and even hurt: Josh Childress, Michael Beasley, Hedo, Scola, Warrick, Shannon Brown, Brandon Knight, the Morrii, Wes Johnson, Aaron Brooks, Michael Redd, Vince Carter, Kendall Marshall, Jermaine ONeal, Zoran Dragic, Earl Barron, and there are more.

[ShelC]

Geez we really had Vince Carter.

[Mori Chu]

100 million dollars for one more great year before he blew his knees again? Are you kidding me? Did you read Mori's post? How can you be okay with that after seeing his health decline immediately after signing that max contract?

It isn't you paying the money why are you so concerned? Here we are 7 years later and we haven't touched the playoffs and it doesn't look like it is going to happen anytime soon. I just don't see how you can look at the garbage we have been these past 7 years and think well I'm real happy we didn't keep together our playoff team when we had it.
Whats even worse is quoting money as the reason why. Especially when we are looking back.

Good thing we dodged the bullet of signing Amare to that 100 million dollar contract. Just think how awful that would have been if he would have gotten injured after one good year and then we would have been garbage for the next 4 years. I would take 1 good year and 6 bad over 7 bad and no the one year we exceeded expectations is not considered good compared to Nash/Amare good.

I think it just proves the point of how Amare is viewed around here, by some people, when we look back at how he played those 5 years and we look at the garbage we instead spent that money on and people still say "Hands down it was for sure the right thing to do not signing him". People actually prefer Childress and Turkoglu.

As for those that argue it was the right decision at the time. I think it can be argued but can't be said definitively. Yes it was a risk to tie up all our caps space but on the other hand we were a championship contender with Nash and Amare. Do you take a gamble on his knees hoping we can finally break through or do we just scrap it all and pray that some other big name free agent will sign with us.

I still feel that people thought you could stick any 4 players around Nash and he would take them deep into the playoffs. That Amare wasn't needed and if we could just get someone who could play some defense we could go farther without him. Nash was a great player and Amare was a great player. Together they were insane. We threw that away and seven years later we are still bad.

I don't want to keep repeating myself, but you just don't seem to be understanding what I am saying. It wasn't the money that caused us to pass on Amare. It was that his knees were made of papier mache and were about to blow out, as determined by our expert medical staff. He was too big of a health risk. And they were *right*. I just don't see how you can argue that we should have given a guy a 5-year, $100,000,000 contract who then blew out his knees one year later. Seriously, why are you advocating that? You would be an abysmal NBA GM if you think that would be a good move.

Nobody here is praising Childress, Warrick, and Turkoglu, our puu puu platter haul in summer 2010 that we signed using Amare's cap room. Nobody here is saying we prefer those guys to Amare. It was completely wrong and stupid to sign those guys. We should not have signed them.

But just because we shouldn't have signed the puu puus doesn't mean we *should* have signed Amare. The right answer is that we should not have done either of those things.

[EDC]

Why would you quote my response to someone else instead of my actual response to your post?

Once again with the I was right about not wanting to sign Amare because of the outcome (him getting injured). While ignoring how we spent that money.

Here is an easy question. Knowing what we know now. Would you rather have signed Amare or signed all the crap we did instead? This magical world where we use the money saved on Amare to get another all star just didn't exist. We could have gotten slightly better crap but we weren't getting any all stars.

[Superbone]

Why would you quote my response to someone else instead of my actual response to your post?

His site, his rules.

[Mori Chu]

Here is an easy question. Knowing what we know now. Would you rather have signed Amare or signed all the crap we did instead? This magical world where we use the money saved on Amare to get another all star just didn't exist. We could have gotten slightly better crap but we weren't getting any all stars.

Your logical fallacy is: False dichotomy. Here is a page you can read to understand why your question is irrelevant.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/false_dichotomy

[EDC]

Really? Did I say those were the only options? No I asked you to weigh which one you would prefer of the two.

I never said signing Amare was the best option. Not signing Amare and signing Lebron would have been the best option.

You put all the qualifiers on my side of the argument while you constantly dance around with yours. We have to consider the injury that happened. We can't consider who we spent the money on. We can't consider the amnesty.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

The right answer is that we should not have done either of those things.

He already answered your question, and I agree, unless this magical world also do not exist.

[Shabazz]

100 million dollars for one more great year before he blew his knees again? Are you kidding me? Did you read Mori's post? How can you be okay with that after seeing his health decline immediately after signing that max contract?

It isn't you paying the money why are you so concerned? Here we are 7 years later and we haven't touched the playoffs and it doesn't look like it is going to happen anytime soon. I just don't see how you can look at the garbage we have been these past 7 years and think well I'm real happy we didn't keep together our playoff team when we had it.
Whats even worse is quoting money as the reason why. Especially when we are looking back.

Good thing we dodged the bullet of signing Amare to that 100 million dollar contract. Just think how awful that would have been if he would have gotten injured after one good year and then we would have been garbage for the next 4 years. I would take 1 good year and 6 bad over 7 bad and no the one year we exceeded expectations is not considered good compared to Nash/Amare good.

I think it just proves the point of how Amare is viewed around here, by some people, when we look back at how he played those 5 years and we look at the garbage we instead spent that money on and people still say "Hands down it was for sure the right thing to do not signing him". People actually prefer Childress and Turkoglu.

As for those that argue it was the right decision at the time. I think it can be argued but can't be said definitively. Yes it was a risk to tie up all our caps space but on the other hand we were a championship contender with Nash and Amare. Do you take a gamble on his knees hoping we can finally break through or do we just scrap it all and pray that some other big name free agent will sign with us.

I still feel that people thought you could stick any 4 players around Nash and he would take them deep into the playoffs. That Amare wasn't needed and if we could just get someone who could play some defense we could go farther without him. Nash was a great player and Amare was a great player. Together they were insane. We threw that away and seven years later we are still bad.

I don't want to keep repeating myself, but you just don't seem to be understanding what I am saying. It wasn't the money that caused us to pass on Amare. It was that his knees were made of papier mache and were about to blow out, as determined by our expert medical staff. He was too big of a health risk. And they were *right*. I just don't see how you can argue that we should have given a guy a 5-year, $100,000,000 contract who then blew out his knees one year later. Seriously, why are you advocating that? You would be an abysmal NBA GM if you think that would be a good move.

Nobody here is praising Childress, Warrick, and Turkoglu, our puu puu platter haul in summer 2010 that we signed using Amare's cap room. Nobody here is saying we prefer those guys to Amare. It was completely wrong and stupid to sign those guys. We should not have signed them.

But just because we shouldn't have signed the puu puus doesn't mean we *should* have signed Amare. The right answer is that we should not have done either of those things.

I hope your fingers got some good exercise typing that because you're not gonna accomplish much else here.

[JustWinBaby]

Really? Did I say those were the only options? No I asked you to weigh which one you would prefer of the two.

I never said signing Amare was the best option. Not signing Amare and signing Lebron would have been the best option.

You put all the qualifiers on my side of the argument while you constantly dance around with yours. We have to consider the injury that happened. We can't consider who we spent the money on. We can't consider the amnesty.

EDC you are fighting a losing battle.

The facts that no one wants to admit to is that it has turned out to be the wrong decision to not sign Amare. At the time it appeared to be the right decision due to the injury risk Amare had. However the release of Amare in the end did nothing positive for this franchise or fan base. We have not been in the playoffs since he left for New York. We probably would have made the playoffs the next season and he still would have played some minutes in the next four years. Even with no knees he would have been more fun to watch sit on the bench in street clothes than the garbage we have had to endure as his replacements.

I do not see how that decision has helped this franchise in any way shape or form.

1. What players do we have now that we would not have if we had signed Amare?
2. How many more playoffs have we made due to releasing Amare?
3. How is our future better today due to the release of Amare?
4. How many fewer games would we have won if we had kept Amare?

Yep it was the right decision at the time but in the end it really did nothing positive for this franchise. That is exactly what I suggested at the time.

[AmareIsGod]

Really? Did I say those were the only options? No I asked you to weigh which one you would prefer of the two.

I never said signing Amare was the best option. Not signing Amare and signing Lebron would have been the best option.

You put all the qualifiers on my side of the argument while you constantly dance around with yours. We have to consider the injury that happened. We can't consider who we spent the money on. We can't consider the amnesty.

EDC you are fighting a losing battle.

The facts that no one wants to admit to is that it has turned out to be the wrong decision to not sign Amare. At the time it appeared to be the right decision due to the injury risk Amare had. However the release of Amare in the end did nothing positive for this franchise or fan base. We have not been in the playoffs since he left for New York. We probably would have made the playoffs the next season and he still would have played some minutes in the next four years. Even with no knees he would have been more fun to watch sit on the bench in street clothes than the garbage we have had to endure as his replacements.

I do not see how that decision has helped this franchise in any way shape or form.

1. What players do we have now that we would not have if we had signed Amare?
2. How many more playoffs have we made due to releasing Amare?
3. How is our future better today due to the release of Amare?
4. How many fewer games would we have won if we had kept Amare?

Yep it was the right decision at the time but in the end it really did nothing positive for this franchise. That is exactly what I suggested at the time.

Had we resigned Amare, he given us another year and playoff run and then he blew his knees out, we would have moaned and griped to the ends of the earth. This alternative that played out is just that. The situation could have went one of two ways. Neither was a winning decision and re-signing Amare to $100 million to have his health fall apart would have never led to the alternative, which in revisionist theory tells us is a slightly inferior scenario. There's always going to be a bad, better or best case scenario in most situations. Both of the outcomes were bad with one being better simply on the merit of one more good year of Amare. He was my favorite player but to just simply argue in hindsight that wasting $100 million on Amare is better than what happened alternatively, that still doesn't make re-signing Amare a smart idea. Of course breaking your femur bone is worse than breaking your collarbone, relatively speaking. But both are shitty experiences.

[Mori Chu]

I give up on this argument, but I wish you well.