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The Celtics most important players are Irving, Tatum, Horford and Brown. None of those players is an offensive liability.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:I do disagree that the players mentioned are subpar individual defenders, if they are rotating, making call outs, following their assignments. That's all you can ask someone to do defensively. 1 on 1 defense isn't really a thing in today's game because of the popularity of the pick and roll making everyone switch. There is a difference in what you and I consider bad defenders, guys like Kanter, Elfrid Payton, Karl Towns, etc, people who don't try/lack awareness are bad defenders, we have a roster littered with them. Guys who communicate, know their roles and play within the team constructs to me are good defenders.

That makes individual defensive talent less important. If you function well as a unit elite 1 on 1 defense is incredibly overrated. Again in the last 10 years the best players on each championship team have been offensive stars.

Indy wrote:It would be interesting to see how often the NBA champion is a higher rated defensive team than offensive (probably based on efficiency, not simply points for/against). I would be that over the last 30 years, it is more likely for the champion to be a higher rated defense than offense. How would you look that up?

I looked back by hand at the last 10 champions. Just using BKref's record of their offensive rating vs defensive rating and comparing their league rankings. As in, the '16 Cas had the 3rd best O-rating inthe NBA, and the 10th best D-rating, so I considered them an offense-centered team.

It is split pretty well. 5 for defense, 4 for offense, and 1 that was 8th in the league in both (Mavs). But catch this: remember those b2b Miami teams? One year they were a better O team, and one year they were a better D team. The Lakers and Warriors split that, too. Did you know the Warriors had the best D-rating the NBA in 14-15, and only the 2nd best O-rating?

I stopped looking 10 seasons back, because I came to the conclusion that it's not an important metric. You've got to be really good at both to have a chance, and then you have to out play your opponents and get a little luck.

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote:It would be interesting to see how often the NBA champion is a higher rated defensive team than offensive (probably based on efficiency, not simply points for/against). I would be that over the last 30 years, it is more likely for the champion to be a higher rated defense than offense. How would you look that up?

I looked back by hand at the last 10 champions. Just using BKref's record of their offensive rating vs defensive rating and comparing their league rankings. As in, the '16 Cas had the 3rd best O-rating inthe NBA, and the 10th best D-rating, so I considered them an offense-centered team.

It is split pretty well. 5 for defense, 4 for offense, and 1 that was 8th in the league in both (Mavs). But catch this: remember those b2b Miami teams? One year they were a better O team, and one year they were a better D team. The Lakers and Warriors split that, too. Did you know the Warriors had the best D-rating the NBA in 14-15, and only the 2nd best O-rating?

I stopped looking 10 seasons back, because I came to the conclusion that it's not an important metric. You've got to be really good at both to have a chance, and then you have to out play your opponents and get a little luck.

You may remember off the top of your head, so I will ask: You mentioned mavs at 8 and 8 on both. Were there any other teams that were not top 3 in one or the other?

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote:It would be interesting to see how often the NBA champion is a higher rated defensive team than offensive (probably based on efficiency, not simply points for/against). I would be that over the last 30 years, it is more likely for the champion to be a higher rated defense than offense. How would you look that up?

I looked back by hand at the last 10 champions. Just using BKref's record of their offensive rating vs defensive rating and comparing their league rankings. As in, the '16 Cas had the 3rd best O-rating inthe NBA, and the 10th best D-rating, so I considered them an offense-centered team.

It is split pretty well. 5 for defense, 4 for offense, and 1 that was 8th in the league in both (Mavs). But catch this: remember those b2b Miami teams? One year they were a better O team, and one year they were a better D team. The Lakers and Warriors split that, too. Did you know the Warriors had the best D-rating the NBA in 14-15, and only the 2nd best O-rating?

I stopped looking 10 seasons back, because I came to the conclusion that it's not an important metric. You've got to be really good at both to have a chance, and then you have to out play your opponents and get a little luck.

You may remember off the top of your head, so I will ask: You mentioned mavs at 8 and 8 on both. Were there any other teams that were not top 3 in one or the other?

There was a Lakers team that was 4th in O-rating and 11th in D-rating. The Miami team with Shaq was 7th on O and 9th on D. There was a Miami team with LeBron that was 7 on one and 8 on the other, IIRC. It's not unheard of.

You got me looking a little farther back, and the '97 Bulls were 9th in O-rating. The season before they had been 1st. Was that '98 championship team really that much worse at scoring than the '97 one? I'm increasingly convinced that the rankings don't mean a lot.

specialsauce wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:I do disagree that the players mentioned are subpar individual defenders, if they are rotating, making call outs, following their assignments. That's all you can ask someone to do defensively. 1 on 1 defense isn't really a thing in today's game because of the popularity of the pick and roll making everyone switch. There is a difference in what you and I consider bad defenders, guys like Kanter, Elfrid Payton, Karl Towns, etc, people who don't try/lack awareness are bad defenders, we have a roster littered with them. Guys who communicate, know their roles and play within the team constructs to me are good defenders.

That makes individual defensive talent less important.

Just gonna agree to disagree here sir.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:

specialsauce wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:I do disagree that the players mentioned are subpar individual defenders, if they are rotating, making call outs, following their assignments. That's all you can ask someone to do defensively. 1 on 1 defense isn't really a thing in today's game because of the popularity of the pick and roll making everyone switch. There is a difference in what you and I consider bad defenders, guys like Kanter, Elfrid Payton, Karl Towns, etc, people who don't try/lack awareness are bad defenders, we have a roster littered with them. Guys who communicate, know their roles and play within the team constructs to me are good defenders.

That makes individual defensive talent less important.

Just gonna agree to disagree here sir.

Fair enough. I still challenge you to name a top 2 player for a championship team in the last 10 years who wasn’t an offensive stud.

specialsauce wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:

specialsauce wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:I do disagree that the players mentioned are subpar individual defenders, if they are rotating, making call outs, following their assignments. That's all you can ask someone to do defensively. 1 on 1 defense isn't really a thing in today's game because of the popularity of the pick and roll making everyone switch. There is a difference in what you and I consider bad defenders, guys like Kanter, Elfrid Payton, Karl Towns, etc, people who don't try/lack awareness are bad defenders, we have a roster littered with them. Guys who communicate, know their roles and play within the team constructs to me are good defenders.

That makes individual defensive talent less important.

Just gonna agree to disagree here sir.

Fair enough. I still challenge you to name a top 2 player for a championship team in the last 10 years who wasn’t an offensive stud.

I'm not sure how that is part of the equation, we were discussing the importance of defense and how each of us seem to value it. I'll just throw Tyson Chandler on the Mavs out there to answer question. He was arguably the 2nd most important part of that team after Dirk.

Yea I was looking at that Mavs roster and they had Shawn and JKidd but I think Tyson really put them over the top defensively.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:

specialsauce wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:

specialsauce wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:I do disagree that the players mentioned are subpar individual defenders, if they are rotating, making call outs, following their assignments. That's all you can ask someone to do defensively. 1 on 1 defense isn't really a thing in today's game because of the popularity of the pick and roll making everyone switch. There is a difference in what you and I consider bad defenders, guys like Kanter, Elfrid Payton, Karl Towns, etc, people who don't try/lack awareness are bad defenders, we have a roster littered with them. Guys who communicate, know their roles and play within the team constructs to me are good defenders.

That makes individual defensive talent less important.

Just gonna agree to disagree here sir.

Fair enough. I still challenge you to name a top 2 player for a championship team in the last 10 years who wasn’t an offensive stud.

I'm not sure how that is part of the equation, we were discussing the importance of defense and how each of us seem to value it. I'll just throw Tyson Chandler on the Mavs out there to answer question. He was arguably the 2nd most important part of that team after Dirk.

Because you can only pay 2 players max money, and a player like Gobert is going to get max dollars. So you have to decide if Gobert can win you a championship being the best or second best player on the team, because that money is locked into him.

Curry, Durant and Klay
Lebron, Kyrie and Love
Shaq and Wade
Parker, Ginobili and Duncan
Kobe and Pau
KG Pierce and Ray Allen
Lebron, Wade and Bosh

These guys are all offensive studs. I will give you Chandler on the Mavs but that was a championship team that overachieved in a down year and Cuban knew it himself and blew the team up and they went 36-30 the next year and lost in the first round.

It’s why I think paying guys like Drummond, Deandre Jordan, Gobert, Nerlens Noel, Tyson Chandler, Steven Adams etc big time money is a huge mistake if it means not being able to afford to max out 2 offensive stars and rounding out the roster.

Of all those guys you listed, only Gobert is a certifiable game changer defensively. Gobert changes your entire defensive make up, the rest of those guy are solid role players, and Noel well, he's just a bum.

Also, the Suns aren't really in a position where they have to decide who they max out just yet, they'll max Booker, for better or worse, we know he's not a good defender, I hope we don't get stuck spending all the money on 2 offense only players myself. You just can't outscore everyone.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:Of all those guys you listed, only Gobert is a certifiable game changer defensively. Gobert changes your entire defensive make up, the rest of those guy are solid role players, and Noel well, he's just a bum.

Also, the Suns aren't really in a position where they have to decide who they max out just yet, they'll max Booker, for better or worse, we know he's not a good defender, I hope we don't get stuck spending all the money on 2 offense only players myself. You just can't outscore everyone.

Sure, but your top 2 players better be offensive stars. Your role players can be good defenders and as a team you need a coach that makes defense a priority.

Your two best players better be two-way players.

The Bobster wrote:Your two best players better be two-way players.

mhmm.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:

The Bobster wrote:Your two best players better be two-way players.

mhmm.

Would you say that was true about GS in 2015?

n4th4n wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:

The Bobster wrote:Your two best players better be two-way players.

mhmm.

Would you say that was true about GS in 2015?

Remind me again who the Finals MVP was...


yeesh, so many edits on this lol

n4th4n wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:

The Bobster wrote:Your two best players better be two-way players.

mhmm.

Would you say that was true about GS in 2015?

Green, definitely. Curry, average or slightly above average.

You just put yourself behind the 8-ball when your best players are all-offense, little defense (like Stoudemire and Nash). If you're fortunate you build around a star like Olajuwon, Robinson, Bryant, Jordan, Garnett, Duncan, James, etc. who give you plus defense in addition to offense. It's not easy to hide a player like Nowitzki. It can be done but it's the exception.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:

n4th4n wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:

The Bobster wrote:Your two best players better be two-way players.

mhmm.

Would you say that was true about GS in 2015?

Remind me again who the Finals MVP was...


yeesh, so many edits on this lol

Man you know he may have been the finals MVP but he was not the best or second best player on that tram and not the reason they made it there. He was a role player that had a great series

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:

specialsauce wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:Also, you can't build a good team defense without good individual defenders. LOL.

Tell that to Boston. Or San Antonio.

If you dont think they have good individual defenders then I dont know what to tell you.

Yeah, that was a weird response. The Spurs and Boston have a number of good defenders.

INFORMER wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:

specialsauce wrote:

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:Also, you can't build a good team defense without good individual defenders. LOL.

Tell that to Boston. Or San Antonio.

If you dont think they have good individual defenders then I dont know what to tell you.

Yeah, that was a weird response. The Spurs and Boston have a number of good defenders.

None of their best players are known primarily as defenders. They have role players that play good defense and they are incredibly well coached and disciplined.

You would consider Aldridge, Gasol, Gay, Parker, Ginobili, Bertrams good defenders?