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Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:52 pm
by specialsauce
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:35 pm
SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:12 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:25 am
The Bobster wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:18 am
I am of the belief that Ayton needs minutes, coaching and scoring opportunities in order to get better.
I don't think having him come off the bench and basically split time with Baynes is helping the team a lot in the long run.
The future of this team is in how well they develop guys like Ayton, Bridges, Cam Johnson, Jerome, Oubre, Okobo and Booker. Rubio, Saric and Baynes are really complimentary players brought in to fill holes.
Agreed. And hopefully getting outworked by Zeller last night will be a great teaching moment for him. He was much better in the 2nd half than the first.
One of Ayton’s problems last year was no point guard to feed him the ball. Coming off the bench puts him in the same position. Rubio was brought in to feed him. If Rubio starts and Ayton doesn’t we are right back where we started.
Since he has been coming off the bench, he has spent the majority of his on-court time with Rubio.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. Second reference to Zeller “out working” Ayton. zeller had 2 offensive rebounds. 2. We dominated the glass. People just want DA to fail.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:53 pm
by specialsauce
DA had 10? 12? Points at half.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:56 pm
by specialsauce
Would love somebody to track down Zellers stats against Ayton. He had at least one and 1 against Baynes. The impact is really exaggerated. He averages 7.2 rebounds per game. He’s not trash.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:23 pm
by Superbone
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:52 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:35 pm
SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:12 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:25 am
The Bobster wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:18 am
I am of the belief that Ayton needs minutes, coaching and scoring opportunities in order to get better.
I don't think having him come off the bench and basically split time with Baynes is helping the team a lot in the long run.
The future of this team is in how well they develop guys like Ayton, Bridges, Cam Johnson, Jerome, Oubre, Okobo and Booker. Rubio, Saric and Baynes are really complimentary players brought in to fill holes.
Agreed. And hopefully getting outworked by Zeller last night will be a great teaching moment for him. He was much better in the 2nd half than the first.
One of Ayton’s problems last year was no point guard to feed him the ball. Coming off the bench puts him in the same position. Rubio was brought in to feed him. If Rubio starts and Ayton doesn’t we are right back where we started.
Since he has been coming off the bench, he has spent the majority of his on-court time with Rubio.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. Second reference to Zeller “out working” Ayton. zeller had 2 offensive rebounds. 2. We dominated the glass. People just want DA to fail.
That's the furthest thing from the truth for me. Just watch the game and watch Ayton's interactions with Zeller. Who's boxing whom out? That's all I ask.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:58 pm
by specialsauce
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:23 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:52 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:35 pm
SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:12 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:25 am
Agreed. And hopefully getting outworked by Zeller last night will be a great teaching moment for him. He was much better in the 2nd half than the first.
One of Ayton’s problems last year was no point guard to feed him the ball. Coming off the bench puts him in the same position. Rubio was brought in to feed him. If Rubio starts and Ayton doesn’t we are right back where we started.
Since he has been coming off the bench, he has spent the majority of his on-court time with Rubio.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. Second reference to Zeller “out working” Ayton. zeller had 2 offensive rebounds. 2. We dominated the glass. People just want DA to fail.
That's the furthest thing from the truth for me. Just watch the game and watch Ayton's interactions with Zeller. Who's boxing whom out? That's all I ask.
2 offensive rebounds. 2. What are you even talking about? Seriously, what are you looking for?
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:34 pm
by Superbone
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:58 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:23 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:52 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:35 pm
SunsRIt wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:12 pm
One of Ayton’s problems last year was no point guard to feed him the ball. Coming off the bench puts him in the same position. Rubio was brought in to feed him. If Rubio starts and Ayton doesn’t we are right back where we started.
Since he has been coming off the bench, he has spent the majority of his on-court time with Rubio.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. Second reference to Zeller “out working” Ayton. zeller had 2 offensive rebounds. 2. We dominated the glass. People just want DA to fail.
That's the furthest thing from the truth for me. Just watch the game and watch Ayton's interactions with Zeller. Who's boxing whom out? That's all I ask.
2 offensive rebounds. 2. What are you even talking about? Seriously, what are you looking for?
I don’t know how I can be any more clear.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:26 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:34 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:58 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:23 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:52 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:35 pm
Since he has been coming off the bench, he has spent the majority of his on-court time with Rubio.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. Second reference to Zeller “out working” Ayton. zeller had 2 offensive rebounds. 2. We dominated the glass. People just want DA to fail.
That's the furthest thing from the truth for me. Just watch the game and watch Ayton's interactions with Zeller. Who's boxing whom out? That's all I ask.
2 offensive rebounds. 2. What are you even talking about? Seriously, what are you looking for?
I don’t know how I can be any more clear.
Pardon my butting in here. When I watch Ayton he does a fine job of getting to most rebounds, but he doesn't understand positioning well enough to completely dominate a guy like Zeller, whom we wouldn't expect to have any chance against Ayton if we see them standing next to each other.
Just looking at the box score can be misleading because he's a double-double machine solely based on his size and athleticism. Watch him closely and you'll notice all the little things he's missing related to understanding the game and how to move on the court. I'm talking about things like ball-watching on defense, creating poor passing angles in the post, and lacking a counter move to match his opponent on offense and defense. Those things can't always be directly connected to box score numbers, but they can impact winning and losing just as much as rebounds and blocked shots.
Almost every issue with Ayton comes down to what's going on between his ears. We have no other choice but to be patient, but it's frustrating because of the expectations of a #1 pick and the other players ahead of him in development that were drafted later. Until he puts together multiple games of dominating his position, we're going to have these debates. Those are the fair expectations, and ultimately it's up to him and not the PG, coaches, etc.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:35 pm
by specialsauce
Once again, Zeller had 2 offensive rebounds.
The Suns out rebounded the Hornets by a huge margin.
This is ridiculous.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:37 pm
by Superbone
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:26 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:34 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:58 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:23 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:52 pm
I don’t know what you’re talking about. Second reference to Zeller “out working” Ayton. zeller had 2 offensive rebounds. 2. We dominated the glass. People just want DA to fail.
That's the furthest thing from the truth for me. Just watch the game and watch Ayton's interactions with Zeller. Who's boxing whom out? That's all I ask.
2 offensive rebounds. 2. What are you even talking about? Seriously, what are you looking for?
I don’t know how I can be any more clear.
Pardon my butting in here. When I watch Ayton he does a fine job of getting to most rebounds, but he doesn't understand positioning well enough to completely dominate a guy like Zeller, whom we wouldn't expect to have any chance against Ayton if we see them standing next to each other.
Just looking at the box score can be misleading because he's a double-double machine solely based on his size and athleticism. Watch him closely and you'll notice all the little things he's missing related to understanding the game and how to move on the court. I'm talking about things like ball-watching on defense, creating poor passing angles in the post, and lacking a counter move to match his opponent on offense and defense. Those things can't always be directly connected to box score numbers, but they can impact winning and losing just as much as rebounds and blocked shots.
Almost every issue with Ayton comes down to what's going on between his ears. We have no other choice but to be patient, but it's frustrating because of the expectations of a #1 pick and the other players ahead of him in development that were drafted later. Until he puts together multiple games of dominating his position, we're going to have these debates. Those are the fair expectations, and ultimately it's up to him and not the PG, coaches, etc.
Please butt in. You put it perfectly into words. Thank you for your clarity on the situation. That's exactly it.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:08 am
by Nodack
I did notice Ayton getting more touches and starting to do more things. It scared me when he turned his ankle again. I hope it is ok and I hope it doesn’t slow him down physically or mentally. Everybody sees what a human specimen Ayton is and expect a lot from a #1 pick. I know he hasn’t quite delivered this year so far with the suspension, the ankle turn and him not performing up to expectations. He missed a lot of time and is slightly rusty. He has stayed very positive to the point it irritates people.
I say sit back and see where this goes and quit stressing over it so much.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:14 am
by Flagrant Fowl
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:35 pm
Once again, Zeller had 2 offensive rebounds.
The Suns out rebounded the Hornets by a huge margin.
This is ridiculous.
Did you notice how the Hornets got like 10 straight buckets right at the rim as soon as he entered the game in the first quarter? Who needs offensive rebounds when the guy who should be protecting the paint is out of position?
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:17 am
by Flagrant Fowl
Nodack wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:08 am
He has stayed very positive to the point it irritates people.
Because the positive things he says are not always manifested on the court.
Nodack wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:08 am
I say sit back and see where this goes and quit stressing over it so much.
You're right, but only because we don't have any other option but hope.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:19 am
by Nodack
Hope is all we got. It’s free though.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:49 am
by Indy
Nodack wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:19 am
Hope is all we got. It’s free though.
well said
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:49 am
by Indy
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:14 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:35 pm
Once again, Zeller had 2 offensive rebounds.
The Suns out rebounded the Hornets by a huge margin.
This is ridiculous.
Did you notice how the Hornets got like 10 straight buckets right at the rim as soon as he entered the game in the first quarter? Who needs offensive rebounds when the guy who should be protecting the paint is out of position?
but the box score doesn't show that!
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:41 am
by JCSunsfan
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:35 pm
Once again, Zeller had 2 offensive rebounds.
The Suns out rebounded the Hornets by a huge margin.
This is ridiculous.
Man. I am with you on this one.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:11 am
by djy2j
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:07 pm
The Bobster wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:55 pm
djy2j wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:41 pm
Ayton had some spurts where he looked really good. Seems like it is happening more often. Zeller torched him on the offensive glass though. I can’t really blame him for never boxing out. He clearly has no idea what that is so it’s on the coaches for letting it go on so long. It’s so fundamentally bad.
Zeller had 2 offensive rebounds for the game.
The eyes see what they want. Sad.
Ayton allowing guys to crash the offensive glass is a thing even though it doesn’t show up in a box score
It’s frustrating to me because there isn’t much of a stat for being outworked. But as I watch him, to me, that’s what I see again and again. I usually see it as a play develops, Ayton has 2 choices on how to react, what I would call the “easy way” and the “better way.”
Ayton jump shooting the ball from 15 feet with a much slower defender in him is another prime example. Making a basketball move towards the rim would put him in a much better position to score and get fouled. But it’s easier to just shoot over the guy who can’t block your shot. This is what he usually does.
I want Ayton to succeed. Once he starts figuring out the little things the progress will be much quicker. Until then I’m going to call him on his bullshit.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:36 am
by azsportsfan
ShelC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:34 am
Exum? Have you watched him?
The issue with getting a scorer for the bench is they'll still need to play within the system. If a smaller scoring guard like Clarkson needs the ball, does that throw things off? I think we need more creators/dribble drive guys which is why I like Okobo. He can play downhill and has a great first step. I think I'd rather devote minutes to him at this point.
I have indeed, when he has been healthy enough to play (not much). But, unfortunately, I have also seen our bench play...
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am
by SunsRIt
djy2j wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:11 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:07 pm
The Bobster wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:55 pm
djy2j wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:41 pm
Ayton had some spurts where he looked really good. Seems like it is happening more often. Zeller torched him on the offensive glass though. I can’t really blame him for never boxing out. He clearly has no idea what that is so it’s on the coaches for letting it go on so long. It’s so fundamentally bad.
Zeller had 2 offensive rebounds for the game.
The eyes see what they want. Sad.
Ayton allowing guys to crash the offensive glass is a thing even though it doesn’t show up in a box score
It’s frustrating to me because there isn’t much of a stat for being outworked. But as I watch him, to me, that’s what I see again and again. I usually see it as a play develops, Ayton has 2 choices on how to react, what I would call the “easy way” and the “better way.”
Ayton jump shooting the ball from 15 feet with a much slower defender in him is another prime example. Making a basketball move towards the rim would put him in a much better position to score and get fouled. But it’s easier to just shoot over the guy who can’t block your shot. This is what he usually does.
I want Ayton to succeed. Once he starts figuring out the little things the progress will be much quicker.
Until then I’m going to call him on his bullshit.
It must be overwhelming to have such and important responsibility.
Re: Game Day: Hornets (15-26) @ Suns (15-23), Sun 1/11/20
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:21 am
by djy2j
It's not "overwhelming" or "important" by any means. Not sure why it seems to disgust some that Ayton is held accountable on this forum. Some people watch games differently than others. I'd say there's no right or wrong way to analyze it. Some choose to rely on what the box score tells them. Others don't. It's fine either way I'm not going to hold back on Ayton, or any player, because it ruffles a few feathers. I'm simply pointing out the flaws of a top draft pick who comes off the bench on a 16-23 team and I offer no apologies for doing so.