Suns News: Weeks 16-18 2/10-3/1

[INFORMER]

I don't think the whole "if only we had Ayton" argument works because the team played their best stretch of basketball without him. I'm not saying the team is better without Ayton, I just don't think it makes sense to put too much weight on Ayton's absence when evaluating the team.

[Drewsprocket]

Y’all are watching box scores not games!

I watch a lot of games. You’re just seeing what you want to see. He’s not a perfect player, you’re not wrong about some of his flaws(tunnel vision, gambles defensively) I think you just aren’t factoring in all of his positive contributions. It’s the 80/20 rule...you’re focusing on the 20% he does bad and not counting the 80% he does right. He’s been a good/clutch 3 pt shooter for us this year. He’s the only player on the team that can score without needing Booker or Rubio to help them. He’s top 15 in the league in deflections.

Do you think we don’t need his offense? Do you think his steals/deflections don’t matter? He’s rebounding at a career high rate, is that worthless? He’s basically at his career low turnover rate and at his 2nd highest usage rate? Does taking care of the ball on offense mean nothing? You think he takes bad shots, he’s still above average in offensive efficiency. He’s also been better in all these categories in the last month.

You get on people for judging Ayton too harshly at times, no one judges one of our players more harshly than you do Oubre. I doubt this will change your opinion, but watch a game and count the positive things he does, they’ll outnumber the negative.

I’ve watched 95% of the games this year. To me Oubres offense comes at the expense of the rest of the team. The nights he’s off he brings the whole ship down with him, and he is not important enough to have such an effect (Booker should have that level of usage, Kelly does this on his own because of his tunnel vision).

His deflections come at the expense of positional defense: and the 3-4 deflections he gets are often out of 10-15 attempts, and when he doesn’t get them or the flashy block that means leaving his own man wide open for a 3 or layup.

He’s worth $15M/year, but only once the team and Kelly both realize he’s a black hole best suited for 20 mpg off the bench.

I’ve missed watching one game this year. Oubre is legitimately a part of this team’s chemistry and fight. And yes he can throw up some bricks but he’s still figuring it out. He’s taking a leap from last year. As the team adds to its roster he should settle into being its best 3rd or 4th player but still be it’s heart.

[SunsRIt]

I don't think the whole "if only we had Ayton" argument works because the team played their best stretch of basketball without him. I'm not saying the team is better without Ayton, I just don't think it makes sense to put too much weight on Ayton's absence when evaluating the team.

I think the part of the argument you are missing is if everyone stayed healthy. Baynes would more than likely be healthy if we had
Ayton because he was not a starter and never should have been playing starter minutes. With Ayton, Baynes would have been in his normal backup role. Ayton didn't have to be a star to help this team, being a big body on the court and improving along the way would have helped tremendously. The same could probably be said for Kaminsky and to a lesser extent Saric.

[INFORMER]

I don't think there is anything that suggests the injuries are due to too many minutes played. They all started happening before we even got to the halfway point of the season.

[Nodack]

My Two Cents

Ayton - Stays - Core - Super Star - Untouchable
Booker - Stays - Core - Super Star - Untouchable
Rubio - Stays - Core? - Very good+ - Moved for the right Guy.
Oubre - Stays - Maybe Core- Very good - Moved for right price
Bridges - Stays- Maybe Core- Could be very good - Moved for right price.
Baynes - Stays - Maybe Core - Very good - Free agent I think so, who knows?
C Johnson - Stays - Maybe Core - Could be very good - Moved for right price
Saric - Goes - Not Core - Not athletic - Better than nothing - Please move
Kaminski - Maybe goes - Not Core - Better than nothing - Please move
Diallo - Stays - Too early prob not core - Shows promise - Moved for the right price
Okobo - Stays - Too early prob not core - Best BU so far - Moved for the right price.
Carter - ? - Prob not core - Mini PJ Tucker - Moved most likely.
Lecque - ? - ? - ?- ?

[specialsauce]

My Two Cents

Ayton - Stays - Core - Super Star - Untouchable
Booker - Stays - Core - Super Star - Untouchable
Rubio - Stays - Core? - Very good+ - Moved for the right Guy.
Oubre - Stays - Maybe Core- Very good - Moved for right price
Bridges - Stays- Maybe Core- Could be very good - Moved for right price.
Baynes - Stays - Maybe Core - Very good - Free agent I think so, who knows?
C Johnson - Stays - Maybe Core - Could be very good - Moved for right price
Saric - Goes - Not Core - Not athletic - Better than nothing - Please move
Kaminski - Maybe goes - Not Core - Better than nothing - Please move
Diallo - Stays - Too early prob not core - Shows promise - Moved for the right price
Okobo - Stays - Too early prob not core - Best BU so far - Moved for the right price.
Carter - ? - Prob not core - Mini PJ Tucker - Moved most likely.
Lecque - ? - ? - ?- ?

This is a glass 3/4 full view right here. Ya lost me at Rubio is a core piece

[specialsauce]

Tearing up this team yet again is a terrible idea. I have no doubt that if we had Ayton the entire season and our bench had stayed healthy that we’d be in the playoff mix.

Keep drinking the good drink my man! You’ll live to be 100 with that attitude

[Superbone]

I don't think the whole "if only we had Ayton" argument works because the team played their best stretch of basketball without him. I'm not saying the team is better without Ayton, I just don't think it makes sense to put too much weight on Ayton's absence when evaluating the team.

I think the part of the argument you are missing is if everyone stayed healthy. Baynes would more than likely be healthy if we had
Ayton because he was not a starter and never should have been playing starter minutes. With Ayton, Baynes would have been in his normal backup role. Ayton didn't have to be a star to help this team, being a big body on the court and improving along the way would have helped tremendously. The same could probably be said for Kaminsky and to a lesser extent Saric.

Exactly. Would have been a whole different ballgame with everybody playing their proper roles.

[Superbone]

Tearing up this team yet again is a terrible idea. I have no doubt that if we had Ayton the entire season and our bench had stayed healthy that we’d be in the playoff mix.

Keep drinking the good drink my man! You’ll live to be 100 with that attitude

That's the plan!

[ShelC]

I don't think there is anything that suggests the injuries are due to too many minutes played. They all started happening before we even got to the halfway point of the season.

For guys like Baynes and Rubio, having played as much international ball late into the summer as they did, it probably felt like the middle of the season by November. Baynes especially was playing more minutes than he was used to and was the only physical big we had, with no one to spell him. To say Ayton wouldn't have helped any or wouldn't have made a difference those first 25 games is just ridiculous. You're talking about your 22 yr old 20/10 starting center playing 30+ minutes a night, allowing a guy like Baynes to go back to his usual role of 15-18mpg off the bench against backups.

To not "put too much weight on Ayton's absence when evaluating the team"....that's something right there.

[Cap]

We’re 10-13 with DA and 12-20 without him, so it looks like he does make a difference.

[jonh]

We’re 10-13 with DA and 12-20 without him, so it looks like he does make a difference.

This. I’m interested to see the record at the end of the season

[Mori Chu]

I don't think there is anything that suggests the injuries are due to too many minutes played. They all started happening before we even got to the halfway point of the season.

For guys like Baynes and Rubio, having played as much international ball late into the summer as they did, it probably felt like the middle of the season by November. Baynes especially was playing more minutes than he was used to and was the only physical big we had, with no one to spell him. To say Ayton wouldn't have helped any or wouldn't have made a difference those first 25 games is just ridiculous. You're talking about your 22 yr old 20/10 starting center playing 30+ minutes a night, allowing a guy like Baynes to go back to his usual role of 15-18mpg off the bench against backups.

To not "put too much weight on Ayton's absence when evaluating the team"....that's something right there.

This.

[specialsauce]

I think we’re a real starting PG and a few bench G additions away from being a serious playoff team (not fringe)

How badly I wish we got Brogdon last summer instead of Rubio. Interestingly after looking at their stats, Brogdons shooting worse from 3 than Rubio this year. Would never have guessed.

[Ring_Wanted]

Fred VanVleet is an UFA next summer. Adding him would allow PHX to make a move using Rubio's contract.

[INFORMER]

I don't think there is anything that suggests the injuries are due to too many minutes played. They all started happening before we even got to the halfway point of the season.

For guys like Baynes and Rubio, having played as much international ball late into the summer as they did, it probably felt like the middle of the season by November. Baynes especially was playing more minutes than he was used to and was the only physical big we had, with no one to spell him. To say Ayton wouldn't have helped any or wouldn't have made a difference those first 25 games is just ridiculous. You're talking about your 22 yr old 20/10 starting center playing 30+ minutes a night, allowing a guy like Baynes to go back to his usual role of 15-18mpg off the bench against backups.

To not "put too much weight on Ayton's absence when evaluating the team"....that's something right there.

Baynes is one guy. The Suns have had injuries to Booker, Kaminsky, Jerome, Rubio, Oubre, Saric, etc. Taking away Ayton's suspension doesn't alleviate those injuries.

[INFORMER]

We’re 10-13 with DA and 12-20 without him, so it looks like he does make a difference.

Those records illustrate my point. It doesn't make a significant difference whether we are a .434 team or a .375 team; in either situation, we aren't good. Ayton doesn't change the fact that we still have problems at the 1 and 4. Ayton doesn't change the fact we need more production and consistency from Bridges.

That is my point.

[In2ition]

I disagree that it wouldn't have made a difference. That was a snowball effect on the roster. There were a number of games where they needed another true center and had to rely on Kaminsky. Baynes should have never been put in a position to play all those minutes. We haven't really seen what the team looks like with a full compliment of players in the front court. Having the depth and bench help is probably the biggest obstacle the team has right now. I wouldn't dou t if the team was well over .500 right now and possibly the injuries would have been less too.

[virtual9mm]

We’re 10-13 with DA and 12-20 without him, so it looks like he does make a difference.

This. I’m interested to see the record at the end of the season

Forgetting strength of schedule, folks. Ayton missed a stretch of patsies.

[SunsRIt]

We’re 10-13 with DA and 12-20 without him, so it looks like he does make a difference.

This. I’m interested to see the record at the end of the season

Forgetting strength of schedule, folks. Ayton missed a stretch of patsies.

Whatever. Of course he did.