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Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 6:27 pm
by bajanguy008
AmareIsGod wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 11:01 am
bajanguy008 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 10:12 am
General question for everyone
What's viewed as a good game for Mikal or What do folks expect from Mikal on a nightly basis
and I'm genuinely asking because no secret I'm pro Mikal so I want to hear what others look for
37% FG, 0 for 3 from 3, no FTs, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block and 6 points with the 2nd most minutes at 38 isn't getting it done as a starting SF in the NBA.
Nightly, I'd expect 12-15 points, 4 or 5 rebounds, 2 or 3 assists, 2 or 3 steals for a guy with his length and defensive skills and maybe a block.
Last night was clearly a poor game, just after he seemed to have a nice 4 game stretch dating back to Cleveland. He's gotten more consistent as of late but last night was bad.
Right so where does Usage Rate factor into this in your opinion ?
I'm at work so will post numbers later but Mikal avgs 9 shots a game so he has to be super efficient most nights. Yes 37% jumps out like damn dude was bricking lol but it's just 8 shots. Hit one 3 and it's 4/8 but still only 9pts unless we wanna chip in two FTs for argument sake to get him to double digits.
4/8 (.500) or 4/9 (.444) looks better in the box score but is that the difference between poor and good ?
So my other question is like
JWB mentioned, are you guys seeing these multiple opportunities for Mikal to attack as the lack of field goal attempts or is it a result of his role in the offense. There's a direct correlation between us playing good D and getting out in transition cause he's usually getting 4-6pts that way but these half court games his FGA tend to be barely 10
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 6:44 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
Mikal deserves very little flack for his performance this season. Unless someone is expecting him to be Paul George or something, there's no reason to be upset with him. And if someone expects him to be that kind of player then I wonder if they really understand player development.
He's gone from a rotation player to an all-defensive level player in one season, his third in the league. Give the guy a break.
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 6:57 pm
by bajanguy008
Well
FF coming in a lil hot
, I trying to keep the discussion light sigh lol but he used the word that I was waiting to reference -
"development"
I believe he keeps adding little nuances to his offensive game.
INF I believe made the point in a separate discussion that getting high quality looks when getting alot of shots per game is a skill. That is a very good point imo
So then the discussion becomes if Mikal is shooting 53-55% all season to basically turn his 9 shots per game into 13pts. Is it as simple as Mikal getting more like 14-16 shots a game and his per game avgs will be closer to 18-20pts which I assume would make persons see him as easily more invaluable. That's more where I want to know how ppl view him because if he has that potential to develop to that type of usage, that's why he gets paid.
If he's just a guy who will always have these single digit duds because he isn't assertive enough, simply not good enough or not featured enough well then whatever numbers getting discussed might not be worth it.
So I wasn't really debating if this game was a stinker but more a general/future question
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 7:49 pm
by Indy
Nodack wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 5:07 pm
Not worried.
not worried if/when we will have Jae and Torrey guarding AD for a full series?
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 8:01 pm
by JeremyG
Indy wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:49 pm
Nodack wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 5:07 pm
Not worried.
not worried if/when we will have Jae and Torrey guarding AD for a full series?
If we face the Lakers it will likely be Ayton on Davis. Or Saric starting at PF on Davis and Ayton on Drummond.
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:11 pm
by Indy
JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 8:01 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:49 pm
Nodack wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 5:07 pm
Not worried.
not worried if/when we will have Jae and Torrey guarding AD for a full series?
If we face the Lakers it will likely be Ayton on Davis. Or Saric starting at PF on Davis and Ayton on Drummond.
If Dario Saric is guarding AD, then I hope that is a different Dario Saric than I have ever seen before.
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 1:37 am
by Flagrant Fowl
bajanguy008 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:57 pm
Well
FF coming in a lil hot
, I trying to keep the discussion light sigh lol but he used the word that I was waiting to reference -
"development"
I believe he keeps adding little nuances to his offensive game.
INF I believe made the point in a separate discussion that getting high quality looks when getting alot of shots per game is a skill. That is a very good point imo
So then the discussion becomes if Mikal is shooting 53-55% all season to basically turn his 9 shots per game into 13pts. Is it as simple as Mikal getting more like 14-16 shots a game and his per game avgs will be closer to 18-20pts which I assume would make persons see him as easily more invaluable. That's more where I want to know how ppl view him because if he has that potential to develop to that type of usage, that's why he gets paid.
If he's just a guy who will always have these single digit duds because he isn't assertive enough, simply not good enough or not featured enough well then whatever numbers getting discussed might not be worth it.
So I wasn't really debating if this game was a stinker but more a general/future question
Maybe there's a misunderstanding here.
The point I was trying to make was that some people are upset with Mikal because he's not doing enough offensively, but fail to recognize that he's never been someone who's created his own shots. So knocking him for something he's never done or really been asked to do is what I meant by "not understanding player development". Maybe (hopefully) he develops his offensive repertoire someday. I just think it's unreasonable to expect him to be something he's never shown to be in only his third year.
He's exceeded my expectations this season in the parts of his game that I know he's comfortable with, defense and spot up shooting. That will get him $15M/year on his next deal. Now if he develops a bag of tricks off the dribble, and Monty starts calling plays for him, he'll be in the neighborhood of a max level contract. He's obviously really good in a support role now, I really like him as a person, and there isn't any evidence that he doesn't work hard, so I'm perfectly fine with his flaws this season and I think he has a chance to become really special.
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 2:10 am
by JustWinBaby
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 1:37 am
bajanguy008 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:57 pm
Well
FF coming in a lil hot
, I trying to keep the discussion light sigh lol but he used the word that I was waiting to reference -
"development"
I believe he keeps adding little nuances to his offensive game.
INF I believe made the point in a separate discussion that getting high quality looks when getting alot of shots per game is a skill. That is a very good point imo
So then the discussion becomes if Mikal is shooting 53-55% all season to basically turn his 9 shots per game into 13pts. Is it as simple as Mikal getting more like 14-16 shots a game and his per game avgs will be closer to 18-20pts which I assume would make persons see him as easily more invaluable. That's more where I want to know how ppl view him because if he has that potential to develop to that type of usage, that's why he gets paid.
If he's just a guy who will always have these single digit duds because he isn't assertive enough, simply not good enough or not featured enough well then whatever numbers getting discussed might not be worth it.
So I wasn't really debating if this game was a stinker but more a general/future question
Maybe there's a misunderstanding here.
The point I was trying to make was that some people are upset with Mikal because he's not doing enough offensively, but fail to recognize that he's never been someone who's created his own shots. So knocking him for something he's never done or really been asked to do is what I meant by "not understanding player development". Maybe (hopefully) he develops his offensive repertoire someday. I just think it's unreasonable to expect him to be something he's never shown to be in only his third year.
He's exceeded my expectations this season in the parts of his game that I know he's comfortable with, defense and spot up shooting. That will get him $15M/year on his next deal. Now if he develops a bag of tricks off the dribble, and Monty starts calling plays for him, he'll be in the neighborhood of a max level contract. He's obviously really good in a support role now, I really like him as a person, and there isn't any evidence that he doesn't work hard, so I'm perfectly fine with his flaws this season and I think he has a chance to become really special.
The problem it Mikal it is not having in the front court of our team willing to aggressively attack the rim and protect the paint. Mikal is not built to do that. He is built to be a quality perimeter defender, which he is.
The problem is that Ayton does not attack unless spoon fed and even then he often fumbles the pass. We have compensated for this missing part during the regular season, I have my doubts that we are going to have much success this off season with the roster as constructed. I hope coach can come up with a fix for the playoffs and teams like the Lakers. It really appears to be a Laker vs the Nets final. Yuck
If we lose two of the next three it could be the Lakers vs the Clippers in round 1, that works for me. It would be a horrible end to a fantastic season.
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:38 am
by ShelC
My only issue with Mikal is the prospect of paying him $20+mil a year. He's a 3-D wing, a very good one, but not a reliable source of offense who can help carry the load. He's improved his game, but I don't think he'll evolve into an attacking offensive player we can consistently rely on next to Book in the future. Any deal starting at 20-22mil will automatically put a target on his back in terms of expectations. If we can get him on that Anunoby/Harris deal at 4yrs 75ish, those games where he doesn't contribute on offense become a bit more palatable.
And honestly, same goes for DA. These guys, right now, aren't worth deals starting at 22-25mil IMO.
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 5:48 am
by specialsauce
ShelC wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:38 am
My only issue with Mikal is the prospect of paying him $20+mil a year. He's a 3-D wing, a very good one, but not a reliable source of offense who can help carry the load. He's improved his game, but I don't think he'll evolve into an attacking offensive player we can consistently rely on next to Book in the future. Any deal starting at 20-22mil will automatically put a target on his back in terms of expectations. If we can get him on that Anunoby/Harris deal at 4yrs 75ish, there games where he doesn't contribute on offense become a bit more palatable.
And honestly, same goes for DA. These guys, right now, aren't worth deals starting at 22-25mil IMO.
I would agree, though I think Bridges at that deal would be more palatable than DA
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:55 pm
by bajanguy008
ShelC wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:38 am
My only issue with Mikal is the prospect of paying him $20+mil a year. He's a 3-D wing, a very good one, but not a reliable source of offense who can help carry the load. He's improved his game, but I don't think he'll evolve into an attacking offensive player we can consistently rely on next to Book in the future. Any deal starting at 20-22mil will automatically put a target on his back in terms of expectations. If we can get him on that Anunoby/Harris deal at 4yrs 75ish, those games where he doesn't contribute on offense become a bit more palatable.
And honestly, same goes for DA. These guys, right now, aren't worth deals starting at 22-25mil IMO.
Believe it or not, I'm in total agreement. Love the kid but don't see why he will command more than Anunoby or well definitely not 4-6 more per year. The style of play with OG basically playing D and living on corner 3s with the organization paying him and developing into more of an offensive threat with increased usage this year is literally what I would expect we will try to do.
I will have to peep to see who else deserve a good extension from his draft that might make his price bump up but hopefully it's an easy economic decision for all parties
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:07 pm
by bajanguy008
Yea forgot to post this, this like the last 25 games.
There are the obvious duds, that debacle in UTA when he was in foul trouble never got in any rhythm. We blew out MIA and he had little to do with it so no big deal either way and then SAS when the whole team stunk up the joint anyways.
BKN and last game against GSW is when most were clearly frustrated with his lack of production. If he doesn't hit a 3 like I said earlier in the thread chances are it's a single digit night when his shots are so limited. I will continue to watch to see if he is passing up opportunities when he gets run off the line or if it would be cool to just run the occasional action for him.
Some were like he hasn't been showing any consistency which I found to be an interesting take cause since they all shat the bed against SAS he's been one of our best players. The eye sore there for me isn't even really those two single digit games but the going 1-9 from 3pt against BOS which means the ball was finding him and he couldn't make the D pay and probably should have tried to get to the rim at some point.
Either way I appreciate the feedback from those who shared their opinion and entertained me but just my lil analysis
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:30 pm
by Nodack
Indy wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:49 pm
Nodack wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 5:07 pm
Not worried.
not worried if/when we will have Jae and Torrey guarding AD for a full series?
Not worried about the funk they are in. Definitely worried about playing the other teams in the playoffs. They are pretty healthy heading into the playoffs and we know what they are capable of, so I am not worried about them playing like crap in the playoffs because of these few last games of the year. When the going gets tough....
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 5:58 pm
by Shabazz
bajanguy008 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:07 pm
Yea forgot to post this, this like the last 25 games.
There are the obvious duds, that debacle in UTA when he was in foul trouble never got in any rhythm. We blew out MIA and he had little to do with it so no big deal either way and then SAS when the whole team stunk up the joint anyways.
BKN and last game against GSW is when most were clearly frustrated with his lack of production. If he doesn't hit a 3 like I said earlier in the thread chances are it's a single digit night when his shots are so limited. I will continue to watch to see if he is passing up opportunities when he gets run off the line or if it would be cool to just run the occasional action for him.
Some were like he hasn't been showing any consistency which I found to be an interesting take cause since they all shat the bed against SAS he's been one of our best players. The eye sore there for me isn't even really those two single digit games but the going 1-9 from 3pt against BOS which means the ball was finding him and he couldn't make the D pay and probably should have tried to get to the rim at some point.
Either way I appreciate the feedback from those who shared their opinion and entertained me but just my lil analysis
He was also Curry's primary defender, so the dud on offense is a little more justified (and maybe even part of the plan - let him save his energy for defense).
He's shown some nice flashes off the dribble recently. Hopefully we can continue to develop that.
Re: Game Day: Suns (48-20) @ Warriors (36-33), Tues 5/11/21
Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:03 pm
by INFORMER
Uncle_Gene wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 12:53 pm
Suns have to get Ayton involved and get him the ball at the right spots.
Yep. I've said this before, but Ayton's shortcomings this year are on Ayton and the Suns. The Suns went into short-term mode when they acquired Paul, and that carried over to marginalizing Ayton on offense. That approach probably led to more regular season wins, but probably undermined the Suns ability to be able to make it out of the West.
