Game Day: Suns (16-18) @ Hornets (7-27), Tues 1/7/24

[Split T]

The Suns knew the rules and Ishbia was only too happy to throw his money around and not care about the new aprons and tax penalties. Having a super rich owner willing to spend is what got us to this point.

Agree with everything about KD. I don't hate him, but this isn't the roster for him anymore. He's Melo and he needs strong leadership, dirtworkers/rebounders/defenders and shooters around him. He's not going to make others better. He's a scorer. If he'd have gotten here a year earlier with Monty and CP, it might've been different. I legitimately think Houston has the coach and roster that best suits him now. Maybe the Clippers too.

We did not know the rules when we traded for KD

[SunsSince92]

If we’re trying to blame something, let’s blame whoever came up with the new CBA…that is really what screwed us…we got an owner willing to spend anything, traded away our depth and future for an immediate win now player and then the new CBA immediately handicapped our ability to put a real team around them. We’ve had to get creative and take a bunch of risks that just didn’t work. Would have been quite a bit easier to build a team if the 2nd apron didn’t exist.

We have to blame a series of bad decisions since they made the Finals -

- They held onto Ayton too long and didn't trade him when they could have gotten more for him
- They paid too high a price for Durant
- They traded Paul and draft picks for a bad contract that killed any flexibility they may have had
- They made several poor choices last year when signing minimum contracts to fill out their roster, including the decision to contact Eubanks too soon, which cost them a draft choice
- They undervalued the significance of having a point guard on the roster last year
- They've hired defensive-minded coaches and givin them little in the way of defensive-minded players

The lion's share of the blame for this mess goes to the front office for this poorly-constructed team (we've been saying they need an athletic big for several years now, and thier top talent has too much duplication - they lack defenders and rebounders). But there's plenty of blame left over for the players who rarely show much effort and intensity. Their best players aren't leaders, and the entire roster has had problems staying on the court because of injuries and suspension.

This team is just as bad to watch as the Josh Jackson-Dragan Bender-Marquese Chriss shitshow was.

Hard to argue with any of that. One thing to add is that they've now hired a coach who likes his teams to shoot 3's when our 3 best players are far more comfortable in the mid range/driving to the rim. As with Vogel last year, it seems the FO are hell bent on trying to fit square pegs into round holes with predictable consequences.

[Superbone]

Great players but not champions. There's a big difference in perception there. Guys like LBJ and KD don't want to be on that "great players to never win a ring" list with Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Stockton, Nash, Melo. You want to be on the list with MJ, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Olajuwon, Kareem, Curry, Wade.

Of course but they're still great players. Not everyone can win a ring no matter how great you are. It's a team sport.

[AmareIsGod]

If we’re trying to blame something, let’s blame whoever came up with the new CBA…that is really what screwed us…we got an owner willing to spend anything, traded away our depth and future for an immediate win now player and then the new CBA immediately handicapped our ability to put a real team around them. We’ve had to get creative and take a bunch of risks that just didn’t work. Would have been quite a bit easier to build a team if the 2nd apron didn’t exist.

We have to blame a series of bad decisions since they made the Finals -

- They held onto Ayton too long and didn't trade him when they could have gotten more for him
- They paid too high a price for Durant
- They traded Paul and draft picks for a bad contract that killed any flexibility they may have had
- They made several poor choices last year when signing minimum contracts to fill out their roster, including the decision to contact Eubanks too soon, which cost them a draft choice
- They undervalued the significance of having a point guard on the roster last year
- They've hired defensive-minded coaches and givin them little in the way of defensive-minded players

The lion's share of the blame for this mess goes to the front office for this poorly-constructed team (we've been saying they need an athletic big for several years now, and thier top talent has too much duplication - they lack defenders and rebounders). But there's plenty of blame left over for the players who rarely show much effort and intensity. Their best players aren't leaders, and the entire roster has had problems staying on the court because of injuries and suspension.

This team is just as bad to watch as the Josh Jackson-Dragan Bender-Marquese Chriss shitshow was.

Hard to argue with any of that. One thing to add is that they've now hired a coach who likes his teams to shoot 3's when our 3 best players are far more comfortable in the mid range/driving to the rim. As with Vogel last year, it seems the FO are hell bent on trying to fit square pegs into round holes with predictable consequences.

Just like hiring Igor, coach of Luka, to then immediately draft Ayton.

[Superbone]

We need to trade KD before it's too late and he loses value. If we hold onto him, it will be a mistake. Similar to how we held onto Ayton too long.

[The Bobster]

If we’re trying to blame something, let’s blame whoever came up with the new CBA…that is really what screwed us…we got an owner willing to spend anything, traded away our depth and future for an immediate win now player and then the new CBA immediately handicapped our ability to put a real team around them. We’ve had to get creative and take a bunch of risks that just didn’t work. Would have been quite a bit easier to build a team if the 2nd apron didn’t exist.

We have to blame a series of bad decisions since they made the Finals -

- They held onto Ayton too long and didn't trade him when they could have gotten more for him
- They paid too high a price for Durant
- They traded Paul and draft picks for a bad contract that killed any flexibility they may have had
- They made several poor choices last year when signing minimum contracts to fill out their roster, including the decision to contact Eubanks too soon, which cost them a draft choice
- They undervalued the significance of having a point guard on the roster last year
- They've hired defensive-minded coaches and givin them little in the way of defensive-minded players

The lion's share of the blame for this mess goes to the front office for this poorly-constructed team (we've been saying they need an athletic big for several years now, and thier top talent has too much duplication - they lack defenders and rebounders). But there's plenty of blame left over for the players who rarely show much effort and intensity. Their best players aren't leaders, and the entire roster has had problems staying on the court because of injuries and suspension.

This team is just as bad to watch as the Josh Jackson-Dragan Bender-Marquese Chriss shitshow was.

Hard to argue with any of that. One thing to add is that they've now hired a coach who likes his teams to shoot 3's when our 3 best players are far more comfortable in the mid range/driving to the rim. As with Vogel last year, it seems the FO are hell bent on trying to fit square pegs into round holes with predictable consequences.

Just like hiring Igor, coach of Luka, to then immediately draft Ayton.

They had a brief period when they made some decisions that were working out - drafting Bridges and Johnson, signing Paul and Crowder - but other than that the front office has been a shitshow since Blanks took over for Kerr in 2010 (and that's not saying Kerr was great at it either).

[The Bobster]

We need to trade KD before it's too late and he loses value. If we hold onto him, it will be a mistake. Similar to how we held onto Ayton too long.

Jerry Colangelo didn't hold onto players too long. How many players of significance have actually retired here? Dick Van Arsdale, Alvan Adams, anyone else? Knowing when to move on from a star player is an important part of the job. Sometimes it works out (Charlie Scott, Paul Westphal, Larry Nance) and sometimes it doesn't (Dennis Johnson, Paul Silas). The worst thing is to hold onto veteran players with big contracts and declining skills, and we may have that bearing down on us here.

[Superbone]

If we’re trying to blame something, let’s blame whoever came up with the new CBA…that is really what screwed us…we got an owner willing to spend anything, traded away our depth and future for an immediate win now player and then the new CBA immediately handicapped our ability to put a real team around them. We’ve had to get creative and take a bunch of risks that just didn’t work. Would have been quite a bit easier to build a team if the 2nd apron didn’t exist.

We have to blame a series of bad decisions since they made the Finals -

- They held onto Ayton too long and didn't trade him when they could have gotten more for him
- They paid too high a price for Durant
- They traded Paul and draft picks for a bad contract that killed any flexibility they may have had
- They made several poor choices last year when signing minimum contracts to fill out their roster, including the decision to contact Eubanks too soon, which cost them a draft choice
- They undervalued the significance of having a point guard on the roster last year
- They've hired defensive-minded coaches and givin them little in the way of defensive-minded players

The lion's share of the blame for this mess goes to the front office for this poorly-constructed team (we've been saying they need an athletic big for several years now, and thier top talent has too much duplication - they lack defenders and rebounders). But there's plenty of blame left over for the players who rarely show much effort and intensity. Their best players aren't leaders, and the entire roster has had problems staying on the court because of injuries and suspension.

This team is just as bad to watch as the Josh Jackson-Dragan Bender-Marquese Chriss shitshow was.

Hard to argue with any of that. One thing to add is that they've now hired a coach who likes his teams to shoot 3's when our 3 best players are far more comfortable in the mid range/driving to the rim. As with Vogel last year, it seems the FO are hell bent on trying to fit square pegs into round holes with predictable consequences.

Just like hiring Igor, coach of Luka, to then immediately draft Ayton.

They had a brief period when they made some decisions that were working out - drafting Bridges and Johnson, signing Paul and Crowder - but other than that the front office has been a shitshow since Blanks took over for Kerr in 2010 (and that's not saying Kerr was great at it either).

And Monty Williams. That was a GREAT stretch. We made a Finals run and had our best record ever the following year and then the poop hit the fan in the playoffs and it's gone downhill ever since.

[ShelC]

It's weird how people only knock Jones and the FO but never really give credit for the successes.

[The Bobster]

And Monty Williams. That was a GREAT stretch. We made a Finals run and had our best record ever the following year and then the poop hit the fan in the playoffs and it's gone downhill ever since.

Part of that was a lot of things falling into place - which, granted, is how a lot of teams advance in the playoffs. Williams's shortcoming became pretty apparent later on. He was a good fit when they had strong leadership, but he had problems connecting with some of the players (namely Crowder and Ayton) and the chemistry that the Suns had for a couple of years evaporated when those players were shipped out and replaced by players who haven't fit together nearly as well (despite their talent).

[The Bobster]

It's weird how people only knock Jones and the FO but never really give credit for the successes.

They had a brief period where they seemed to make all the right moves - trading for Paul, signing Crowder, drafting Johnson and Bridges - but the bad moves are starting to become the norm.

[Split T]

Monty got more out of KD/Booker than Vogel or Bud have…though Monty did have CP3 still.

[Split T]

It's weird how people only knock Jones and the FO but never really give credit for the successes.

They had a brief period where they seemed to make all the right moves - trading for Paul, signing Crowder, drafting Johnson and Bridges - but the bad moves are starting to become the norm.

Are they? You can look at the Beal and KD trades and call them failures if you want…but getting Grayson out of the Ayton deal was good. So was trading for Royce. Signing Tyus was great. Drafting Dunn/Oso looks great.

They are just overshadowed because putting the big 3 together didn’t work.

[ShelC]

Signing Rubio and trading for Oubre not only laid the foundation but also paved the way for CP.

[Drewsprocket]

It's weird how people only knock Jones and the FO but never really give credit for the successes.

They had a brief period where they seemed to make all the right moves - trading for Paul, signing Crowder, drafting Johnson and Bridges - but the bad moves are starting to become the norm.

Are they? You can look at the Beal and KD trades and call them failures if you want…but getting Grayson out of the Ayton deal was good. So was trading for Royce. Signing Tyus was great. Drafting Dunn/Oso looks great.

They are just overshadowed because putting the big 3 together didn’t work.

It was easy to think they would just turn it into something workable like the SSOL. I thought Tyus would open it up. But the three just don’t make it easier for each other to score. Book and KD need at least a couple of defenders and physical perhaps inside finisher types to have a source of easy bucket getting.

[Split T]

It’s also just a different game than it was in 2005. Teams defend differently. Tyus also just doesn’t put enough pressure on the defense as a scorer. I know people don’t like it when the big 3 create offense, but they force the defense to put two on the ball and that creates advantages…

Pick your poison, force the defense to put two on the ball, but the ball is in the hands of a more turnover prone player…or take care of the ball, but you don’t stress the defense to get them into an uncomfortable situation.

It would also help if we had a real roll threat. Nash was a lethal pull up shooter and also had Marion and Amare. Tyus has a decent floater, but is more of a catch and shoot guy and he’s got Nurk/Plumlee(some of the worst finishing bigs I’ve ever seen).

Then that problem is compounded on the defensive end as we are tiny..also Nurk/Plumlee aren’t great defenders. I do wonder what having someone like Daniel Gafford would do for us.

I don’t think we are winning anything, but we could at least have a decent team if we could find a way to get a real 5, who pressures the rim, and a bigger wing.

Jones/Booker/Wing/KD/Center
Morris/Beal/Royce/Dunn/Oso

In this scenario I’m assuming Grayson and Nurk are used somehow to get those two replacements.

[Mori Chu]

The longer I think about it, I think KD is our main problem. (...)

I've been a pretty vocal KD critic for most of this season. He's extremely talented, and in some respects he's been our best and most consistent player this season. But he just flunks the eye test. Some of my repeated gripes about him: (...)

Now do Booker. I want to hear what you say about his lack of leadership, his inconsistancy this year, his poor defense and his tendancy to play hero ball.

I have been willing to criticize Booker. In particular I've said, "Booker's poor play is one of the biggest reasons we have had a bad season." I wrote the following post in another thread:

I'm not, like, "out" on Booker or whatever. I love the guy and want him to stay here and retire a Sun, maybe the greatest Sun of all time by the time it's done. But I also just want to have an honest conversation about how he's currently playing, especially in the broader context of assigning blame for our disappointing season. Frankly I think Booker's poor play is one of the biggest reasons we have had a bad season. Here are some of his stats:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... ede01.html

Comparison to last season:

- scoring: 27.1 -> 24.1 (-3 ppg)
- shooting: .552/.364/.886 -> .482/.339/.888 (-7% 2pt, -3% 3pt)

The numbers are down modestly, but by the eye test he's really taken a step back. He's more tentative, he misses important shots, he gets double-teamed and loses the ball. His turnovers aren't up statistically but it's really striking if you watch him closely. Something is off.

None of this means I dislike Booker or think we should trade him or whatever. I just think we don't mention him enough when we are talking about this failure of a season and who shares the blame for it.

[Mori Chu]

We need to trade KD before it's too late and he loses value. If we hold onto him, it will be a mistake. Similar to how we held onto Ayton too long.

Absolutely this. Whatever you think of the Suns' current level of fucked-ness, we will absolutely be way way more fucked if KD tears an ACL or Achilles or whatever. About 2-3 times a game, KD takes a gangly awkward fall and I hold my breath, fearing the worst. Obviously it would also be horrible for Book or Beal to suffer a bad injury, but a KD injury has the highest overlap of likelihood X devastating impact on the team's future assets.

[specialsauce]

I think we all agree a drastic change is needed at this point.

To me a drastic change can be one of three things:

Trade Beal for Butler and do what you can to improve at the C/PF position utilizing Nurk, Okogie and Allen.

Trade KD

Say fuck it all and trade 2/3 stars to the highest bidders.

If we're trading KD or Book for young players and picks it does benefit us to try and work with Houston to get our own picks back. If we're trading them for other win-ready pieces, it doesn't matter much. Houston can have our late lottery pick

I'm down for any of these, but not selecting one of these three is not an option to me

[JeremyG]

If he'd have gotten here a year earlier with Monty and CP, it might've been different.

He was here with Monty and CP. And we still folded in the playoffs.