Phx-Suns.Net

I think Collison is possible but not anytime soon. Indy probably sees themselves as ECF contenders right now, so they won't shake things up until necessary or until someone makes them an offer too good to refuse. Some people love to shit on McD, but I don't think he would overpay for Collison.

Ya, I don't see them trading him before the season starts and I don't think we'd be willing to wait till the deadline to get a PG. I'd see what Toronto wants for Delon Wright. Tyus Jones would be another option. Both are essentially 3rd string pg's right now.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:48 am

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:37 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:20 am

Dragic is absurdly overrated by a select few around here.

And absurdly underrated by a select few. It all balances out.

Nah.

Ya.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:45 am

Right now tho this kind of trade makes the Ariza signing look worse IMO.

I don't see it that way. I think Ariza just slides over to his more natural position at SF.

Split T wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:05 am

I think I'd just try and get Darren Collison from Indy. He's a 1 year rental who led the league in 3 pt shooting. He's steady, doesn't need the ball, defends his position. That gives us time to evaluate Okobo/Melton/Shaq and not throw them to the wolves this year.

The question is if Indy would be interested. Collison was nice for them, and while they acquired essentially a Collison clone in Holiday, they may not want to throw him into the starting lineup yet. Still, they also have Cory Joseph and Tyreke Evans who can run the point.

Why don't we just ask him? Indy?

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:26 pm

ShelC wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:45 am

Right now tho this kind of trade makes the Ariza signing look worse IMO.

I don't see it that way. I think Ariza just slides over to his more natural position at SF.

Which means more of a minutes crunch for Jackson, TJ and Bridges? And if Ariza becomes the backup PF, where does that leave Bender?

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:22 pm

TheOriginalOriginal wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:48 am

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:37 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:20 am

Dragic is absurdly overrated by a select few around here.

And absurdly underrated by a select few. It all balances out.

Nah.

Ya.

Who's underrating him? All I see is people who think he's the missing piece like Nash was to those 7SOL teams and some who realize he's just an average PG at the end of his prime.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:26 pm

ShelC wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:45 am

Right now tho this kind of trade makes the Ariza signing look worse IMO.

I don't see it that way. I think Ariza just slides over to his more natural position at SF.

Those players will interchange a lot.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:10 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:26 pm

ShelC wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:45 am

Right now tho this kind of trade makes the Ariza signing look worse IMO.

I don't see it that way. I think Ariza just slides over to his more natural position at SF.

Which means more of a minutes crunch for Jackson, TJ and Bridges? And if Ariza becomes the backup PF, where does that leave Bender?

I think most of those guys are interchangeable at the forward spots although Bridges with his slight build should probably exclusively play SF and maybe even could slide over to play some SG.

JCSunsfan wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:27 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:26 pm

ShelC wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:45 am

Right now tho this kind of trade makes the Ariza signing look worse IMO.

I don't see it that way. I think Ariza just slides over to his more natural position at SF.

Those players will interchange a lot.

Yup.

Split T wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:15 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:22 pm

TheOriginalOriginal wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:48 am

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:37 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:20 am

Dragic is absurdly overrated by a select few around here.

And absurdly underrated by a select few. It all balances out.

Nah.

Ya.

Who's underrating him? All I see is people who think he's the missing piece like Nash was to those 7SOL teams and some who realize he's just an average PG at the end of his prime.

Well you and FF for starters. THE missing piece? I'm not reading that. He is better than average. End of his prime is debatable. How many more years did Nash play? Dragic keeps himself in very good shape from what I see. He would help us elevate our win totals in Igor's system. No doubt in my mind.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:49 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:15 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:22 pm

TheOriginalOriginal wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:48 am

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:37 am

And absurdly underrated by a select few. It all balances out.

Nah.

Ya.

Who's underrating him? All I see is people who think he's the missing piece like Nash was to those 7SOL teams and some who realize he's just an average PG at the end of his prime.

Well you and FF for starters. THE missing piece? I'm not reading that. He is better than average. End of his prime is debatable. How many more years did Nash play? Dragic keeps himself in very good shape from what I see. He would help us elevate our win totals in Igor's system. No doubt in my mind.

Maybe I should have said average starting PG. There's probably 12-13 guys I'd take over him. Dragic is 32, and has seen a drop in productivity. Mostly in his ability to get to the rim and finish. His 2pt% has dropped from pretty significantly since 13-14. He's still a solid player and he would definitely help us this year, but I wouldn't pay him 19 million next year. That money could be used much more effectively to find someone who will overlap more with the rest of our teams prime.

And there's been a love fest with dragic on this board for awhile. Maybe I exaggerated a bit, possibly because I just read an article by Dave King calling dragic his dream PG target. Still, I think quite a few on this board think he's better than he actually is.

I agree with everything Split said.

I'd also add that giving up a young asset or first round pick to acquire him would be very dumb, but some people advocating for him seem willing to go way beyond what I consider his market value to get him.

I'd take him on a contract slightly above the MLE in a heartbeat, hypothetically.

Dragic would be a stopgap. I'd be fine with that so long as we made a concerted effort to develop Melton, Okobo and Harrison to take the reigns at some point. If they cant, draft your future PG. I think his numbers dropping are due to the Heat's system and style. Paying him 19mil next year is whatever. Better than a Kemba rental this year and than needing to make a decision to overpay next season. My question is what it would take to get Dragic. I wouldn't overpay in a trade and I'm not sure we have anything they'd want.

Split T wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:23 pm

Maybe I should have said average starting PG. There's probably 12-13 guys I'd take over him. Dragic is 32, and has seen a drop in productivity. Mostly in his ability to get to the rim and finish. His 2pt% has dropped from pretty significantly since 13-14. He's still a solid player and he would definitely help us this year, but I wouldn't pay him 19 million next year. That money could be used much more effectively to find someone who will overlap more with the rest of our teams prime.

And there's been a love fest with dragic on this board for awhile. Maybe I exaggerated a bit, possibly because I just read an article by Dave King calling dragic his dream PG target. Still, I think quite a few on this board think he's better than he actually is.

FWIW, Dragic put up solid but not mind-blowing numbers in 2017-18, slightly down from the past year.

2016-17: 20.3 ppg on .527 efg%, 5.8 apg, 3.8 rpg in 33.7 mpg
2017-18: 17.3 ppg on .502 efg%, 4.8 apg, 4.1 rpg in 31.7 mpg

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... igo01.html

I don't think he's ever going to be an All-Star again, and you're right that he's a bit older. But he's a smart and hard-working PG who plays the right way and is an unselfish good passer while also being a respectable shooter and a good overall defender. If he were our starting PG, it would make a large noticeable positive difference in the quality of our play as a team.

I don't think Dragic is a godlike MVP player or whatever. But I think you may be dismissing how transformative it would be for us to have an actually good PG running our offense. This team is severely handicapped by having literally nobody on our roster who can even decently play that position. It's a gigantic gaping hole in our lineup and it really lowers the ceiling of what this team can accomplish. It will also hinder the growth and development of players like Ayton who need a good PG to help set up their offense.

I also think you may be underestimating how hard it is to find a PG who can do all 3 of the following important things well:

1. Run an offense
2. Shoot decently well (to make defenses respect him)
3. Play perimeter/team defense

While unspectacular, Dragic is average or above-average at all 3. Almost any other PG target who has been suggested here, along with the ones currently on our roster, are below average at 1-2 of the three above qualities.

I don't disagree with most of what you said. Dragic would definitely help us next year. It's 2019 that makes me wary of a dragic trade. Do you feel comfortable having dragic be our big free agent splash in 2019? Because his 19 million salary takes us out of FA contention.

The guys I'm most intrigued by are Collison, Delon Wright, and Terry Rozier. I think those 3 do reasonably well on your criteria. In fact I think Collison is a better fit than dragic. While Collison is not the scorer dragic is, he's a better shooter(47% from 3 last year) and he's at least as capable running an offense and defending as dragic. And he's an expiring contract, so perfect for a stop gap to get Okobo/melton a year to learn.

Wright and Rozier have more question marks. They are ok shooters, but a step below dragic. Probably a step below running an offense as well. Better defenders though, and the money makes more sense. Come 2019 would you rather have 33 year old dragic on the books for 19 million or matching rights on a 25/26 year old PG? They could both prove costly if they have breakout years, but at least they're young and fit our timeline. Also, we could still have cap space to make an acquisition before we sign them.

Not that it will matter but I'm not cool with paying 2 players who aren't even All-Stars $20M a year for the next couple years. I know we have to spend the money anyway but that's just silly.

Dragic would be a panic move unless they are taking Anderson.

I'm perfectly fine with a stop gap PG, but not with paying for a guy just to say we did.

How about Chandler and Daniels for George Hill and Zizic.

Why does Cleveland do that? I guess it saves some money this year, but I think they'd want more for Hill. He's useful and an expiring contract.