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Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:49 am
by pickle
UglyTruth wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:15 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:00 pm
I didn’t realize his salary was soooooooo ridiculous. I knew it was max but man that super max is disgusting. He might be the worst contract in the league
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:37 pm
In general I like Wall. Fast as hell, plays hard, great at attacking the rim, good passer. But he is on a ridiculous contract and he showed up fat this season. I dunno if you can build a winning team around that monster salary.
The Suns are paying Tyson Chander, Ryan Anderson and Trevor Ariza more this season combined than Wall will make in any year of his current 5 year deal.
And yes, while some of those Suns contracts will expire, don't you think the Suns are gonna waste that cap space on useless players just like that again?
I'll take the sure thing in John Wall than a trio of crap contracts like Chandler, Ariza and Anderson.
I'd have to say I tend to be categorized towards the pessimist end of the scale by most people, even if I consider myself a realist, but this expectation that we will never learn from our mistakes is grim by even my standards. Ariza is a one year deal. Even if he completely craps out, he doesn't impact our ability to build the team into the future. Anderson is atoning for the mistake in Knight, and Chandler is a mistake that was still tolerable in the first year but went downhill from there, but at least none of these guys are massive chemistry negatives. Also, they can all be off the books by next season. I don't know why we would take these three crap contracts and merge them into one massive turd contract that we wouldn't be able to get rid of for three more seasons.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:52 am
by Ring_Wanted
Shabazz wrote: ↑Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:32 pm
Daniels and a 2nd round pick for Tomas Satoransky.
I wish.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:00 am
by UglyTruth
pickle wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:49 am
UglyTruth wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:15 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:00 pm
I didn’t realize his salary was soooooooo ridiculous. I knew it was max but man that super max is disgusting. He might be the worst contract in the league
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:37 pm
In general I like Wall. Fast as hell, plays hard, great at attacking the rim, good passer. But he is on a ridiculous contract and he showed up fat this season. I dunno if you can build a winning team around that monster salary.
The Suns are paying Tyson Chander, Ryan Anderson and Trevor Ariza more this season combined than Wall will make in any year of his current 5 year deal.
And yes, while some of those Suns contracts will expire, don't you think the Suns are gonna waste that cap space on useless players just like that again?
I'll take the sure thing in John Wall than a trio of crap contracts like Chandler, Ariza and Anderson.
I'd have to say I tend to be categorized towards the pessimist end of the scale by most people, even if I consider myself a realist, but this expectation that we will never learn from our mistakes is grim by even my standards. Ariza is a one year deal. Even if he completely craps out, he doesn't impact our ability to build the team into the future. Anderson is atoning for the mistake in Knight, and Chandler is a mistake that was still tolerable in the first year but went downhill from there, but at least none of these guys are massive chemistry negatives. Also, they can all be off the books by next season. I don't know why we would take these three crap contracts and merge them into one massive turd contract that we wouldn't be able to get rid of for three more seasons.
Do you think the Suns will spend the cap room they gain from those three crap contracts expiring in a smart manner? I don't.
Wall might be a bad contract and a malcontent but it's a risk to take him on and maybe being away from Beal can do him good. He's also had absolutely crappy HCs his whole tenure in the NBA, he might like Kokoskov better.
If you think the Suns won't waste that cap space on some other bum then sure not trading for Wall is better. If you think they will waste the cap space on some bum then I'd rather use it on a top 10 PG in the league who can bounce back with a change of scenery.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:23 am
by Superbone
Heh. There is a very specific group of fans that are unhappy with Richaun Holmes' lack of playing time:
https://valleyofthesuns.com/2018/10/28/ ... t-chasing/
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:25 am
by Ring_Wanted
The thing is the CBA has always been particularly inefficient when it comes to the contracts of those 'fake' franchise players, as teams are 'forced' to pay them the absolute max when they are not 100% worth it. But if you want to win you need to have stars and they are expensive.
Regarding John Wall, I'd be really tempted, like I was for Blake Griffin. I get that they are imperfect stars with massive contracts, but these Phoenix Suns are not getting the next disgruntled real franchise player anyway. And if the draft delivers another bust or mere project that won't keep us from losing, Booker is so going to want out and we'll be basically back to square one. At some point you need to go all in.
See, in these kind of scenarios not having the MIA pick hurts like crazy, because nobody is going to consider Mikal the centerpiece in a trade for a star (especially when Bridges can't get minutes on a botton feeder), and you can't expect to get away with protecting your own '19 pick say top5.
I know what you are thinking. If we have wasted six lotto picks or seven lotto picks. Well to tell you the truth with all these busts I kinda lost track myself. But being this a draft class with Zion, the most powerful specimen since Lebron, you gotta ask yourself this question: do I feel lucky?
Well do ya punk?
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:45 am
by Indy
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:25 am
The thing is the CBA has always been particularly inefficient when it comes to the contracts of those 'fake' franchise players, as teams are 'forced' to pay them the absolute max when they are not 100% worth it. But if you want to win you need to have stars and they are expensive.
Regarding John Wall, I'd be really tempted, like I was for Blake Griffin. I get that they are imperfect stars with massive contracts, but these Phoenix Suns are not getting the next disgruntled real franchise player anyway. And if the draft delivers another bust or mere project that won't keep us from losing, Booker is so going to want out and we'll be basically back to square one. At some point you need to go all in.
See, in these kind of scenarios not having the MIA pick hurts like crazy, because nobody is going to consider Mikal the centerpiece in a trade for a star (especially when Bridges can't get minutes on a botton feeder), and you can't expect to get away with protecting your own '19 pick say top5.
I know what you are thinking. If we have wasted six lotto picks or seven lotto picks. Well to tell you the truth with all these busts I kinda lost track myself. But being this a draft class with Zion, the most powerful specimen since Lebron, you gotta ask yourself this question: do I feel lucky?
Well do ya punk?
This was great.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:40 am
by Split T
UglyTruth wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:00 am
pickle wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:49 am
UglyTruth wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:15 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:00 pm
I didn’t realize his salary was soooooooo ridiculous. I knew it was max but man that super max is disgusting. He might be the worst contract in the league
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:37 pm
In general I like Wall. Fast as hell, plays hard, great at attacking the rim, good passer. But he is on a ridiculous contract and he showed up fat this season. I dunno if you can build a winning team around that monster salary.
The Suns are paying Tyson Chander, Ryan Anderson and Trevor Ariza more this season combined than Wall will make in any year of his current 5 year deal.
And yes, while some of those Suns contracts will expire, don't you think the Suns are gonna waste that cap space on useless players just like that again?
I'll take the sure thing in John Wall than a trio of crap contracts like Chandler, Ariza and Anderson.
I'd have to say I tend to be categorized towards the pessimist end of the scale by most people, even if I consider myself a realist, but this expectation that we will never learn from our mistakes is grim by even my standards. Ariza is a one year deal. Even if he completely craps out, he doesn't impact our ability to build the team into the future. Anderson is atoning for the mistake in Knight, and Chandler is a mistake that was still tolerable in the first year but went downhill from there, but at least none of these guys are massive chemistry negatives. Also, they can all be off the books by next season. I don't know why we would take these three crap contracts and merge them into one massive turd contract that we wouldn't be able to get rid of for three more seasons.
Do you think the Suns will spend the cap room they gain from those three crap contracts expiring in a smart manner? I don't.
Wall might be a bad contract and a malcontent but it's a risk to take him on and maybe being away from Beal can do him good. He's also had absolutely crappy HCs his whole tenure in the NBA, he might like Kokoskov better.
If you think the Suns won't waste that cap space on some other bum then sure not trading for Wall is better. If you think they will waste the cap space on some bum then I'd rather use it on a top 10 PG in the league who can bounce back with a change of scenery.
Great strategy. We're gonna do something stupid anyways, might as well just do that stupid thing now and sink this ship before it ever gets going. Wall isn't even very good anymore. Only way Washington is getting rid of that contract is for another terrible one. Maybe a wiggins/Wall swap. So many better options. Wall absolutely kills any chance at FA for 5 years. The hardest of all passes. He's the last guy in the league I'd trade for.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:45 am
by Indy
Split T wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:40 am
UglyTruth wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:00 am
pickle wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:49 am
UglyTruth wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:15 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:00 pm
I didn’t realize his salary was soooooooo ridiculous. I knew it was max but man that super max is disgusting. He might be the worst contract in the league
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:37 pm
In general I like Wall. Fast as hell, plays hard, great at attacking the rim, good passer. But he is on a ridiculous contract and he showed up fat this season. I dunno if you can build a winning team around that monster salary.
The Suns are paying Tyson Chander, Ryan Anderson and Trevor Ariza more this season combined than Wall will make in any year of his current 5 year deal.
And yes, while some of those Suns contracts will expire, don't you think the Suns are gonna waste that cap space on useless players just like that again?
I'll take the sure thing in John Wall than a trio of crap contracts like Chandler, Ariza and Anderson.
I'd have to say I tend to be categorized towards the pessimist end of the scale by most people, even if I consider myself a realist, but this expectation that we will never learn from our mistakes is grim by even my standards. Ariza is a one year deal. Even if he completely craps out, he doesn't impact our ability to build the team into the future. Anderson is atoning for the mistake in Knight, and Chandler is a mistake that was still tolerable in the first year but went downhill from there, but at least none of these guys are massive chemistry negatives. Also, they can all be off the books by next season. I don't know why we would take these three crap contracts and merge them into one massive turd contract that we wouldn't be able to get rid of for three more seasons.
Do you think the Suns will spend the cap room they gain from those three crap contracts expiring in a smart manner? I don't.
Wall might be a bad contract and a malcontent but it's a risk to take him on and maybe being away from Beal can do him good. He's also had absolutely crappy HCs his whole tenure in the NBA, he might like Kokoskov better.
If you think the Suns won't waste that cap space on some other bum then sure not trading for Wall is better. If you think they will waste the cap space on some bum then I'd rather use it on a top 10 PG in the league who can bounce back with a change of scenery.
Great strategy. We're gonna do something stupid anyways, might as well just do that stupid thing now and sink this ship before it ever gets going. Wall isn't even very good anymore. Only way Washington is getting rid of that contract is for another terrible one. Maybe a wiggins/Wall swap. So many better options. Wall absolutely kills any chance at FA for 5 years. The hardest of all passes.
He's the last guy in the league I'd trade for.
That is a really bold statement. And I can't disagree with it at all.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:59 am
by Split T
Ya, there are surely worse players, but that contract is going to be the ugliest thing the NBA has seen in awhile. Wall is still ok and maybe he can turn it around, but his game looks like it's fading fast. If he has a Steve Francis like drop off, Washington will be paying 40 million a year for someone who should be out of the league..yikes. I want no part of that. Wiggins has a terrible contract too, but he's at least young and athletic. There's always the chance he figures it out. Also more tradeable as some team might take a chance on his youth and potential.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:35 am
by ShelC
I don't care about capspace and future FAs if we're trading for the right guy. On paper, Wall is a no brainer even with the money. But his personality and attitude are red flags. I was open to trading for him in the summer and I've always been lukewarm on him but I'm less inclined to trade for him now.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:40 am
by Split T
ShelC wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:35 am
I don't care about capspace and future FAs if we're trading for the right guy. On paper, Wall is a no brainer even with the money. But his personality and attitude are red flags. I was open to trading for him in the summer and I've always been lukewarm on him but I'm less inclined to trade for him now.
2016/2017 Wall was great, but he didn't have a great year last year. He's had health issues, he's getting close to the age where we see a lot of players drop off and he's starting a 5 year supermax deal. At this point he's a better passing version of Bledsoe who's best days are behind him. Do you think he'll stay productive through that contract?
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:51 am
by Cap
UglyTruth wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:00 am
Do you think the Suns will spend the cap room they gain from those three crap contracts expiring in a smart manner? I don't.
Wall might be a bad contract and a malcontent but it's a risk to take him on and maybe being away from Beal can do him good. He's also had absolutely crappy HCs his whole tenure in the NBA, he might like Kokoskov better.
If you think the Suns won't waste that cap space on some other bum then sure not trading for Wall is better. If you think they will waste the cap space on some bum then I'd rather use it on a top 10 PG in the league who can bounce back with a change of scenery.
Great way to make decisions. “We’re going to do something stupid anyway, so it might as well be this.”
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:01 am
by ShelC
Split T wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:40 am
ShelC wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:35 am
I don't care about capspace and future FAs if we're trading for the right guy. On paper, Wall is a no brainer even with the money. But his personality and attitude are red flags. I was open to trading for him in the summer and I've always been lukewarm on him but I'm less inclined to trade for him now.
2016/2017 Wall was great, but he didn't have a great year last year. He's had health issues, he's getting close to the age where we see a lot of players drop off and he's starting a 5 year supermax deal. At this point he's a better passing version of Bledsoe who's best days are behind him. Do you think he'll stay productive through that contract?
It's 50/50. He's had knee issues but still only 28 so he'll be 32 in the final year of his deal. He's right in the middle of his prime so if he can stay healthy he's still an 18-20ppg/8-10apg guy. Is that worth 40+mil? To the Wizards it was. To us? Probably not. But guys are getting paid, these are the new numbers. They're staggering numbers but if there's a gamechanger out there, like Lillard, making 30+mil and we can get him, then get him.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:16 am
by Mori Chu
Okay, I'll come out on one side of this: I would trade for John Wall. BUT, only if it was essentially Washington dumping his salary to us for minimal assets in return. I'm talking, we give them bloated veteran contracts like Chandler and/or Ryan Anderson, and maybe a marginal asset like Josh Jackson, and maybe a distant future 1st rounder (not 2019's), top-N protected. I'd do that. John Wall is a big risk, but teams don't trade stars if they aren't at least somewhat of a risk.
I'm very concerned about how Wall showed up fat this year. That's not cool. But maybe he'd do well with a change of scenery. That Washington team is toxic. And there are weird chemistry issues between him and Beal.
Wall's contract is bloated and scary, especially in a few years. But we need a PG urgently, and he's a great one. We need a star, and he is one. We need to spend that money somewhere, and we could do worse (such as Anderson, Ariza, Chandler, etc.). And star free agents generally aren't signing with Phoenix these days.
I'd go for it. It would be a big gamble, but I would do it, because I still believe in Wall deep down.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:28 am
by ShelC
But the Wizards have been toxic since he's been there and he's most likely the cause of it. I worry about him playing not even 2nd fiddle, but 3rd fiddle behind Booker and Ayton. He just seems like a negative personality to have around.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:53 am
by specialsauce
Walls been partying too much. He’s gone full Shawn Kemp.
PASS
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:57 am
by Indy
ShelC wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:28 am
But the Wizards have been toxic since he's been there and he's most likely the cause of it. I worry about him playing not even 2nd fiddle, but 3rd fiddle behind Booker and Ayton. He just seems like a negative personality to have around.
Weren't they toxic with Arenas too?
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:30 am
by ShelC
I wouldn't say "toxic" for Arenas and that era. Dumb and undisciplined sure, but not toxic IMO.
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:49 am
by Indy
ShelC wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:30 am
I wouldn't say "toxic" for Arenas and that era. Dumb and undisciplined sure, but not toxic IMO.
They literally had guns drawn on each other in the locker room. How is that not toxic?
Re: Suns News: Week 2 10/22-10/28
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:52 am
by ShelC
That was all in good fun tho! Completely taken out of context.