Phx-Suns.Net

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:43 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:54 am

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:12 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:45 am

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:31 pm

Alex Len is a waste of a roster spot.

He is a fine back up center. He is better than Tyson Chandler, Eric Moreland, Emanuel Terry, Quincy Acy, & Dragan Bender--all guys we have/had on our roster this year playing center.

Holmes is our backup. If you are saying he’s better than players on 10 day contracts as the end of the bench , I’ll agree with that. That’s about it though.

I am saying that Len is a serviceable back up center. Holmes is a tenacious player and I love his energy. But it is sill to say that we only need two guys playing the 4/5 position for us all year. Yeah, I know we play TJ there all the time, and even Mikal/KO/JJ there at times. But it is stupid to not have enough guys on our roster to play those positions. Len would certainly have been more helpful that Tyson this year, and would have been needed when both Ayton and Holmes were out.

He’s strictly a 5, just like Ayton and Holmes. True, we could have used him when they were both out, but I’m not going to fret over a 3rd string C.

I am not fretting. I am saying that is a silly to say he is a waste of a roster spot in the NBA.

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:46 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:43 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:54 am

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:12 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:45 am

He is a fine back up center. He is better than Tyson Chandler, Eric Moreland, Emanuel Terry, Quincy Acy, & Dragan Bender--all guys we have/had on our roster this year playing center.

Holmes is our backup. If you are saying he’s better than players on 10 day contracts as the end of the bench , I’ll agree with that. That’s about it though.

I am saying that Len is a serviceable back up center. Holmes is a tenacious player and I love his energy. But it is sill to say that we only need two guys playing the 4/5 position for us all year. Yeah, I know we play TJ there all the time, and even Mikal/KO/JJ there at times. But it is stupid to not have enough guys on our roster to play those positions. Len would certainly have been more helpful that Tyson this year, and would have been needed when both Ayton and Holmes were out.

He’s strictly a 5, just like Ayton and Holmes. True, we could have used him when they were both out, but I’m not going to fret over a 3rd string C.

I am not fretting. I am saying that is a silly to say he is a waste of a roster spot in the NBA.

Fair...He’s a good 3rd string C. Maybe an ok backup C for some teams.

I liked Len and think he is a bit underrated on this board. Let's take a look at the stats.

This year Len averages just under 20 minutes/game. He is averaging 10.2 ppg on .484 fg%, 5.7 rpg, 0.9 bpg.

Richaun Holmes averages 16 minutes/game. He is averaging 8.2 ppg on .655 fg%, 4.5 rpg, 1.1 bpg.

Certainly the two players look different to the "eye test," with Holmes showing much more visible fire and energy. Stat-wise, Holmes's incredible fg% stands out to me the most.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... nal01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... eri01.html

Holmes does provide a strong counterexample that Len is pretty replaceable as a backup center. One might say, "Len isn't worth that contract ATL gave him because look at how you can totally replace his production with a guy making way less money!" One problem with that argument is that we currently have Holmes on a 1-year below-market contract. We'll have to pay Holmes much more next year if we want to keep him. At the end of the day Holmes may get a contract amount close to Len's. In that case the two will essentially be a wash.

You could argue that we shouldn't pay Holmes that much and should instead just let him go and find another cheap backup center to replace him, that essentially we should keep a revolving door of low-priced backup centers and not overpay for any one of them. That might be right. But I don't think it's easy to find a player like Holmes; you sign a backup like this and most of the time they aren't very good. It's rare to find a guy like Holmes who busts his ass and overachieves.

I do definitely admit that Holmes is much more of a player I want to cheer for. His hustle and energy are awesome, and I love what he gives us every game.

Traditional stats can be misleading. Len gets the points and rebounds, but he’s doing it much less efficiently.

PER: Len is 16, Holmes at 22
TS%: Len is .553, Holmes is .684
WS: Len is 1.6, Holmes is 3.5

Holmes is twice the player Len is.

Y'all can talk about whatever you want so take this like a playful jab....

I can not believe we're still talking about Alex Len and his value as a player.

carey wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:24 pm

Y'all can talk about whatever you want so take this like a playful jab....

I can not believe we're still talking about Alex Len and his value as a player.

We're not, at least, not really. We're talking about young players and whether this franchise and its front office has done a good job drafting and developing them. Len is just one data point in that discussion. Nobody here is crushed that Len is gone. I don't think a single person here wishes we had signed him to that contract (except, PERHAPS, as part of a hypothetical reality where we had drafted Doncic and kept Len as our starting C).

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:06 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:34 pm

I'm also not bent out of shape of about adding $3M to the cap next year because I've never once believed the Suns are a FA destination. The best they could probably do is a mid-level guy like Rubio, and space can be cleared to get someone like that if they wanted to try it.

But we've been clearing space. Why compromise any portion of that for Tyler Johnson?!

The FA destination stuff is immaterial. We don't need to chase stars. What we do need are multiple signings of skilled, smart veterans.That is very possible, regardless of the perception of Phoenix or the organization.

You're right. I now have a bad habit of grading player personnel moves on a curve with every other terrible deal they've done in recent memory.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:57 pm

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:06 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:34 pm

I'm also not bent out of shape of about adding $3M to the cap next year because I've never once believed the Suns are a FA destination. The best they could probably do is a mid-level guy like Rubio, and space can be cleared to get someone like that if they wanted to try it.

But we've been clearing space. Why compromise any portion of that for Tyler Johnson?!

The FA destination stuff is immaterial. We don't need to chase stars. What we do need are multiple signings of skilled, smart veterans.That is very possible, regardless of the perception of Phoenix or the organization.

You're right. I now have a bad habit of grading player personnel moves on a curve with every other terrible deal they've done in recent memory.

I think we all are starting to fall into the "at least they didn't fuck it up more like usual" mode.

I'd be willing to pay a lot for Monte Morris. He ticks a lot of boxes. No apparent flaws to his game including defense, and check out his absurd assist to TO ratio. Denver is one of the few teams that has a clear hole at SF (at least until Michael Porter Jr plays). I love Warren, but I'd consider TJ for Morris and Mason Plumlee for him. Would obviously make Jackson available too.

This would even be compatible with a move for Malcom Brogdon in free agency.

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 am

I'd be willing to pay a lot for Monte Morris. He ticks a lot of boxes. No apparent flaws to his game including defense, and check out his absurd assist to TO ratio. Denver is one of the few teams that has a clear hole at SF (at least until Michael Porter Jr plays). I love Warren, but I'd consider TJ for Morris and Mason Plumlee for him. Would obviously make Jackson available too.

This would even be compatible with a move for Malcom Brogdon in free agency.

M. Morris? The name is going to give me unpleasant flashbacks.

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 am

I'd be willing to pay a lot for Monte Morris. He ticks a lot of boxes. No apparent flaws to his game including defense, and check out his absurd assist to TO ratio. Denver is one of the few teams that has a clear hole at SF (at least until Michael Porter Jr plays). I love Warren, but I'd consider TJ for Morris and Mason Plumlee for him. Would obviously make Jackson available too.

This would even be compatible with a move for Malcom Brogdon in free agency.

Wouldn't this also create a problem where they will be missing a backup center? Seems like Denver would be hesitant to do this, especially with the belief that Porter Jr. starts playing next season, at least I would think that's the target date for him.

All valid concerns. Would love to know the price anyway.

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 am

I'd be willing to pay a lot for Monte Morris.

Keep an eye on Isaiah Briscoe too. At Kentucky, he showed tremendous defensive ability and toughness. But his shot was nowhere near NBA-ready. He has put some time in and is hitting the outside jumper and setting up teammates off the dribble.

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 am

This would even be compatible with a move for Malcom Brogdon in free agency.

I'm already waving white flag on Brogdon. I don't think there is any way Milwaukee is letting him go; they're playing at too high of a level.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:20 pm

Keep an eye on Isaiah Briscoe too. At Kentucky, he showed tremendous defensive ability and toughness. But his shot was nowhere near NBA-ready. He has put some time in and is hitting the outside jumper and setting up teammates off the dribble.

Will do.

I'm already waving white flag on Brogdon. I don't think there is any way Milwaukee is letting him go; they're playing at too high of a level.

Perhaps. Not everybody is like PHX letting go Joe Johnson, or OKC with Harden, but you never know if you come up with a max offer the first minute of free agency. MIL cleared salary by dumping Henson and Delly, but Bledsoe, Middleton, Lopez and Mirotic are all FAs too. I'd go for it.

I don't think that Brogdon is the best fit next to Booker. He plays good defense, but I think you need someone with a bit more separation ability next to Booker. Someone that can draw Booker's defender away from him from time to time, splitting the defense, driving to the basket, imo.

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:33 am

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:20 pm

Keep an eye on Isaiah Briscoe too. At Kentucky, he showed tremendous defensive ability and toughness. But his shot was nowhere near NBA-ready. He has put some time in and is hitting the outside jumper and setting up teammates off the dribble.

Will do.

I'm already waving white flag on Brogdon. I don't think there is any way Milwaukee is letting him go; they're playing at too high of a level.

Perhaps. Not everybody is like PHX letting go Joe Johnson, or OKC with Harden, but you never know if you come up with a max offer the first minute of free agency. MIL cleared salary by dumping Henson and Delly, but Bledsoe, Middleton, Lopez and Mirotic are all FAs too. I'd go for it.

Between those guys and Brogdon, who do they care about keeping the most and what are we expecting those guys to get paid? I would love to have Brogdon or Miritic, but even if we stretch Tyler, we will only have enough to pay one of them (and hope we can fill the other role with a cheaper version). Or maybe we can do a sign and trade to get one of them to free up enough cap space to sign two higher paid guys?

In2ition wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:19 am

I don't think that Brogdon is the best fit next to Booker. He plays good defense, but I think you need someone with a bit more separation ability next to Booker. Someone that can draw Booker's defender away from him from time to time, splitting the defense, driving to the basket, imo.

He shoots 41% from 3 and over 50% of his shots come at the rim. I think he can split the defense to get to the rim, especially with the threat of Ayton getting an easy layup if his guys switches, and with booker standing at the 3 point line.

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:03 am

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:33 am

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:20 pm

Keep an eye on Isaiah Briscoe too. At Kentucky, he showed tremendous defensive ability and toughness. But his shot was nowhere near NBA-ready. He has put some time in and is hitting the outside jumper and setting up teammates off the dribble.

Will do.

I'm already waving white flag on Brogdon. I don't think there is any way Milwaukee is letting him go; they're playing at too high of a level.

Perhaps. Not everybody is like PHX letting go Joe Johnson, or OKC with Harden, but you never know if you come up with a max offer the first minute of free agency. MIL cleared salary by dumping Henson and Delly, but Bledsoe, Middleton, Lopez and Mirotic are all FAs too. I'd go for it.

Between those guys and Brogdon, who do they care about keeping the most and what are we expecting those guys to get paid? I would love to have Brogdon or Miritic, but even if we stretch Tyler, we will only have enough to pay one of them (and hope we can fill the other role with a cheaper version). Or maybe we can do a sign and trade to get one of them to free up enough cap space to sign two higher paid guys?

I think Brogdon is an easy #2 on their list. Middleton and Brogdon won’t go anywhere. The others are a little more questionable...Bledsoe has been very good this year though.

Yeah, I would think so too. But as you said, Bledsoe has been really good, and they just traded 4 2nd round picks and Thon Maker for 30 games of Miritic. I assumed that was in hopes of coming out of the East, but also giving them time to convince him to stay there. It will be interesting what they do at midnight,.

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:06 am

In2ition wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:19 am

I don't think that Brogdon is the best fit next to Booker. He plays good defense, but I think you need someone with a bit more separation ability next to Booker. Someone that can draw Booker's defender away from him from time to time, splitting the defense, driving to the basket, imo.

He shoots 41% from 3 and over 50% of his shots come at the rim. I think he can split the defense to get to the rim, especially with the threat of Ayton getting an easy layup if his guys switches, and with booker standing at the 3 point line.

I'm not quite as convinced about him splitting the defense, and doesn't he also get a lot of open 3's in Milwaukee with Bledsoe, Middleton and of course Giannis?