Phx-Suns.Net

INFORMER wrote:I don't see a problem with using Leonard as an example in that context.

He. You obviously don't. But we can let it go here. There is a long summer ahead.

I just don't put any stock in what GMs say to the media before the draft. They're in spin mode. I'm going to wait and see what they do on draft day and in free agency. I don't know what I think about the Len/Goodwin draft; it hasn't been super impressive so far, but I'll give it more time.

Truth be told, it seems like they are doing their part this offseason.

The draft is a week away!! JEEZ this seems like suck a long wait!

I'm not echoing the media hacks. In terms of rookie performance this was one of the worst drafts in NBA history and I'm not counting on the other Shabazz and Mike Muscala to retroactively transform it into a great one.

Sorry, INF. Compare this draft to others. Look how many superstars, all-stars, starters and role players this draft will produce. It falls short of just about every draft since 2000.

Shabazz wrote:Sorry, INF. Compare this draft to others. Look how many superstars, all-stars, starters and role players this draft will produce. It falls short of just about every draft since 2000.

We're one season removed. You can't predict that w/ any accuracy can you?

No. But I can compare the rookie seasons to other rookie seasons and reasonably project those players careers based on what I saw and their body of work coming in to the league. It's certainly possible that 1, 2, 4 or 10 of those players suddenly become studs. I just don't think it's likely.

I hate to interupt all this last years draft class sucked (until proven otherwise, shbazz is right btw)

But Joel Embiid suffered a bad foot injury....may of been a break.

This could really re-shape the top of the draft

Shabazz wrote:I'm not echoing the media hacks. In terms of rookie performance this was one of the worst drafts in NBA history and I'm not counting on the other Shabazz and Mike Muscala to retroactively transform it into a great one.

Sorry, INF. Compare this draft to others. Look how many superstars, all-stars, starters and role players this draft will produce. It falls short of just about every draft since 2000.

Not that one example means anything, but this draft has produced the worst catch and shoot player in the League this season. Guess the name? (by the way, the Suns have two top15 of that kind of role player)

Ben Mclemore?

Sunsfan4life wrote:Ben Mclemore?

Yep. Awful in volume and %.

Second worst was former Sun, Wes Johnson.

Sooo... Would anyone take a shot on Embiid now should the opportunity present itself?

INF is right that the 2013 draft has a lot of NBA rotation guys in it, contributors. But the NBA title often comes down to having the right stars and leaders, and I don't see a lot of those kind of guys from last year's draft. Not a lot of guys who seem like they'll be one of the top 2-3 guys on a team someday. In that light I think it was a pretty weak draft.

Shabazz wrote:I'm not echoing the media hacks. In terms of rookie performance this was one of the worst drafts in NBA history and I'm not counting on the other Shabazz and Mike Muscala to retroactively transform it into a great one.

Sorry, INF. Compare this draft to others. Look how many superstars, all-stars, starters and role players this draft will produce. It falls short of just about every draft since 2000.

Sorry, but the 2013 draft has value. I'm not interested in judging it based on one season. I believe the majority of players I listed, if not all of them, will be significant NBA contributors. Oladipo and Greek Freak will be studs. And I didn't even mention Nerlens Noel. Is the 2014 draft superior? Of course it is. It could be one of the best since 2003. But I examine drafts independently. I look to see if I can find significant NBA contributors, guys I would want on my team, guys I think that can help me win. If I can do that, then the draft is valuable IMO.

And I think it is an incongruity, if not a little contradictory, to be excited about Alex Len but then to take such a short-sighted view of the draft class.

Mori Chu wrote:INF is right that the 2013 draft has a lot of NBA rotation guys in it, contributors. But the NBA title often comes down to having the right stars and leaders, and I don't see a lot of those kind of guys from last year's draft. Not a lot of guys who seem like they'll be one of the top 2-3 guys on a team someday. In that light I think it was a pretty weak draft.

I don't judge drafts drafts just based on how many superstars they produced. And the team that had the best player in the NBA just lost in the Finals in 5 games. The team with the second best player didn't even make it to the Finals. Superstars are important, but so are the high level complementary players. So are the fringe All-Stars. So are the above average starters.

So when I talk about the value of the 2013 draft, I'm not just referring to "rotational" players. I'm not talking about guys 7,8, and 9 on the roster. I'm talking guys 3, 4, and 5 on a well-balanced winning roster.

INFORMER wrote:

Shabazz wrote:I'm not echoing the media hacks. In terms of rookie performance this was one of the worst drafts in NBA history and I'm not counting on the other Shabazz and Mike Muscala to retroactively transform it into a great one.

Sorry, INF. Compare this draft to others. Look how many superstars, all-stars, starters and role players this draft will produce. It falls short of just about every draft since 2000.

Sorry, but the 2013 draft has value. I'm not interested in judging it based on one season. I believe the majority of players I listed, if not all of them, will be significant NBA contributors. Oladipo and Greek Freak will be studs. And I didn't even mention Nerlens Noel. Is the 2014 draft superior? Of course it is. It could be one of the best since 2003. But I examine drafts independently. I look to see if I can find significant NBA contributors, guys I would want on my team, guys I think that can help me win. If I can do that, then the draft is valuable IMO.

And I think it is an incongruity, if not a little contradictory, to be excited about Alex Len but then to take such a short-sighted view of the draft class.

Right on time, Tom Haberstroh chimes in with the best and worst draft classes in the last 25 years.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft201 ... t-25-years

Worst by a mile:

Worst of the worst
1. 2013
Annual EWA: 7.3

Yes, 7.3 EWA. Michael Carter-Williams may end up as the best player in the class, and he barely shot 40 percent on a team that lost 26 straight games at one point. Granted, we have only one year of sample size, but the 2013 class has dug itself such a hole that it's hard to imagine it will be in a different spot on this list any time soon. Of the top 10 picks, only Victor Oladipo, Cody Zeller and Trey Burke posted a positive EWA last season; the 2000 class had twice as many in its rookie season. Can we just hit the reset button and lump the 2013 draft class with the 2014 class? Anyone opposed to that?

The fact that you're arguing that "the 2013 draft will have several significant NBA contributors" is making my point for me. BFD! Every draft has several significant NBA contributors as an influx of 60 of the top amateur athletes in the sport is supposed to. I am comparing it to other drafts based on the information we have. It falls short.

As for Len, the fact that he's a young, 20-year old 7-footer who battled injuries his rookie season still leaves a lot of room for upside. Same is true for Noel. And I'm not denying the upside of other guys you mentioned (even though Dieng is older than my dad). Just saying I think Len's ceiling is as high as just about anyone drafted after him.

Once upon a time, INF, you were a big fan of both Len and Archie as well.

Len and Archie have lost that new rookie smell.. Time to move on.

Shabazz wrote: Once upon a time, INF, you were a big fan of both Len and Archie as well.

Indeed. I'm surprised you remembered. At the beginning of the college season, I thought Archie looked incredible. I had him rated higher than Noel. I thought of him as a sure-fire lotto pick. But as the year went on, he looked worse and worse, which made me sour on him. At present, I'm certainly not saying the 29-pointer isn't going to amount to anything. I think there is potential there. I just think management and fans have overvalued him.

Len is a little different. I liked him for most of the college season. I saw some games that impressed me and some games that were quite unimpressive. Ultimately, I think the poor guard play on Maryland kind of held him back. So going into the draft process, I thought he was a solid prospect. But then I studied him a little more and became more and more impressed. I bumped him up to the guy I would draft number one. Then the news came out about his ankle injury and that was a complete deal-breaker for me. Unrelated to that development, my opinion of Kelly Olynyk grew exponentially, and he soon became my second favorite prospect, eclipsed by only Victor Oladipo, and followed by C.J. McCollum and Rudy Gobert.

I thought Ryan draft him at 5 was reckless. And then when I watch the alleged "highlights" of Len's brief shining moments this past season, they make me cringe. So not only do I have lingering questions about his durability and longevity, I'm beginning to think he wasn't as good as even I thought pre-injury. And that he is this raw after two years of college gives me pause as well.

Michael Carter-Williams may end up as the best player in the class, and he barely shot 40 percent on a team that lost 26 straight games at one point.

I'm not a big MCW, but this is one of the stupidest arguments ever. Tom needs to go back and look up the 1995 NBA co-rookie of the year. And putting the 26-game losing streak on him is a joke. Hinkie was trying to field a team solely composed of D-Leaguers. The depths that front office reached to field a noncompetitive roster is truly unprecedented. But don't let those silly details get in the way of your analysis.

Shabazz wrote:Right on time, Tom Haberstroh chimes in with the best and worst draft classes in the last 25 years.

Media hack!