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Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:04 pm
by AmareIsGod
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:59 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:21 pm
This ultimately comes down to whether or not you believe James Jones is good at his job. Based on his track record with the Suns and understanding of the window with Chris Paul, I trust that he'll have a plan to put the Suns in the group of contenders for the next title.
The next title? And then what happens after that if you don't win next year? You're screwed for the next decade?
What happens if you do win next year? Do the constant naggers shut up or complain it's a one and done championship?
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:07 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:59 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:21 pm
This ultimately comes down to whether or not you believe James Jones is good at his job. Based on his track record with the Suns and understanding of the window with Chris Paul, I trust that he'll have a plan to put the Suns in the group of contenders for the next title.
The next title? And then what happens after that if you don't win next year? You're screwed for the next decade?
Who gives a damn about the next decade? The Kings? The Pistons? The Thunder? I've had enough of watching "potential" maybe or maybe not develop for the past 10 years. What would really screw the Suns chances is paying a guy $10M+ more than his output warrants.
All I care I about as a Suns fan is winning the title in the next season, or the next, or the next after that, and so on. I want to see a team in contention for a title every year.
You don't need to reply about how you think Ayton will be the one to get the Suns there so they should just give him whatever he wants. I already know your opinion and you already know I disagree. I don't think he can lead the Suns to a title taking up 30% of the cap.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:09 pm
by JeremyG
AmareIsGod wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:04 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:59 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:21 pm
This ultimately comes down to whether or not you believe James Jones is good at his job. Based on his track record with the Suns and understanding of the window with Chris Paul, I trust that he'll have a plan to put the Suns in the group of contenders for the next title.
The next title? And then what happens after that if you don't win next year? You're screwed for the next decade?
What happens if you do win next year? Do the constant naggers shut up or complain it's a one and done championship?
I don't see any realistic scenario in which we trade Ayton and build around CP3 and win next year. But if we do I won't care that it's one and done (obviously--we've never won!). But with Paul's age and injury history it's extremely risky and unlikely to work.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:22 pm
by specialsauce
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:09 pm
AmareIsGod wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:04 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:59 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:21 pm
This ultimately comes down to whether or not you believe James Jones is good at his job. Based on his track record with the Suns and understanding of the window with Chris Paul, I trust that he'll have a plan to put the Suns in the group of contenders for the next title.
The next title? And then what happens after that if you don't win next year? You're screwed for the next decade?
What happens if you do win next year? Do the constant naggers shut up or complain it's a one and done championship?
I don't see any realistic scenario in which we trade Ayton and build around CP3 and win next year. But if we do I won't care that it's one and done (obviously--we've never won!). But with Paul's age and injury history it's extremely risky and unlikely to work.
Exactly.
So Suns need to really, seriously go all out to win next year OR focus on continuing to build with a core around Booker’s age.
Half ass it and you’ll turn into a team unsure of its own timeline, which is about as bad as it gets.
They need to fully commit to one end.
Trading DA for mediocre players makes no sense. It gets us no closer to a championship now and completely resets our future and basically leaves us as a middling team stuck with a 38 year old player
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:11 pm
by Drewsprocket
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:22 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:09 pm
AmareIsGod wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:04 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:59 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:21 pm
This ultimately comes down to whether or not you believe James Jones is good at his job. Based on his track record with the Suns and understanding of the window with Chris Paul, I trust that he'll have a plan to put the Suns in the group of contenders for the next title.
The next title? And then what happens after that if you don't win next year? You're screwed for the next decade?
What happens if you do win next year? Do the constant naggers shut up or complain it's a one and done championship?
I don't see any realistic scenario in which we trade Ayton and build around CP3 and win next year. But if we do I won't care that it's one and done (obviously--we've never won!). But with Paul's age and injury history it's extremely risky and unlikely to work.
Exactly.
So Suns need to really, seriously go all out to win next year OR focus on continuing to build with a core around Booker’s age.
Half ass it and you’ll turn into a team unsure of its own timeline, which is about as bad as it gets.
They need to fully commit to one end.
Trading DA for mediocre players makes no sense. It gets us no closer to a championship now and completely resets our future and basically leaves us as a middling team stuck with a 38 year old player
Suns culture is very strong. A few things went bad at the same time this year and we got screwed. They need to upgrade two slots by my estimation- Shamet/Payne minutes + Ayton. If Suns really can pull off a cheap way to get a CP3 backup guy like Malcolm Brogdon on the cheap, then flip Ayton for another scoring wing, then we’re in great shape. We’ll have scoring wings which will make them far more
I don’t think it’s too much to expect honestly.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:35 pm
by The Bobster
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:11 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:22 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:09 pm
AmareIsGod wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:04 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:59 pm
The next title? And then what happens after that if you don't win next year? You're screwed for the next decade?
What happens if you do win next year? Do the constant naggers shut up or complain it's a one and done championship?
I don't see any realistic scenario in which we trade Ayton and build around CP3 and win next year. But if we do I won't care that it's one and done (obviously--we've never won!). But with Paul's age and injury history it's extremely risky and unlikely to work.
Exactly.
So Suns need to really, seriously go all out to win next year OR focus on continuing to build with a core around Booker’s age.
Half ass it and you’ll turn into a team unsure of its own timeline, which is about as bad as it gets.
They need to fully commit to one end.
Trading DA for mediocre players makes no sense. It gets us no closer to a championship now and completely resets our future and basically leaves us as a middling team stuck with a 38 year old player
Suns culture is very strong. A few things went bad at the same time this year and we got screwed. They need to upgrade two slots by my estimation- Shamet/Payne minutes + Ayton. If Suns really can pull off a cheap way to get a CP3 backup guy like Malcolm Brogdon on the cheap, then flip Ayton for another scoring wing, then we’re in great shape. We’ll have scoring wings which will make them far more
I don’t think it’s too much to expect honestly.
How would they squeeze Brogdon's $22.6 million in? And he's got 3 years left on his contract. You can forget about affording to resign Cam Johnson if you do that. Also, you biggest rotation player under contract would be Sarić with Johnson being you biggest forward. Where is the interior defense coming from?
What they need to upgrade is PF. They need somebody with some size who can start ahead of Crowder, with Johnson backing up Bridges. Then they can look at getting a third guard who can back up the starters.
Paul doesn't have much tread left on the tires. There isn't much margin for error when it comes to winning a title. The made a couple of big mistakes last offseason in extending the contract of Shamet and not picking up the option on Smith. They can't afford to take any more backwards steps this offseason. Their window is open, but it won't stay open for long if they rely on Paul so much all year long.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:27 pm
by JeremyG
The window may still be open a crack but it’s going to slam shut before October first.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:00 pm
by Shabazz
Bobby Portis is a free agent (one he declines his PO).
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:23 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
Shabazz wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:00 pm
Bobby Portis is a free agent (one he declines his PO).
He probably gets the full MLE, no?
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:34 pm
by Drewsprocket
The Bobster wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:35 pm
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:11 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:22 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:09 pm
AmareIsGod wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:04 pm
What happens if you do win next year? Do the constant naggers shut up or complain it's a one and done championship?
I don't see any realistic scenario in which we trade Ayton and build around CP3 and win next year. But if we do I won't care that it's one and done (obviously--we've never won!). But with Paul's age and injury history it's extremely risky and unlikely to work.
Exactly.
So Suns need to really, seriously go all out to win next year OR focus on continuing to build with a core around Booker’s age.
Half ass it and you’ll turn into a team unsure of its own timeline, which is about as bad as it gets.
They need to fully commit to one end.
Trading DA for mediocre players makes no sense. It gets us no closer to a championship now and completely resets our future and basically leaves us as a middling team stuck with a 38 year old player
Suns culture is very strong. A few things went bad at the same time this year and we got screwed. They need to upgrade two slots by my estimation- Shamet/Payne minutes + Ayton. If Suns really can pull off a cheap way to get a CP3 backup guy like Malcolm Brogdon on the cheap, then flip Ayton for another scoring wing, then we’re in great shape. We’ll have scoring wings which will make them far more
I don’t think it’s too much to expect honestly.
How would they squeeze Brogdon's $22.6 million in? And he's got 3 years left on his contract. You can forget about affording to resign Cam Johnson if you do that. Also, you biggest rotation player under contract would be Sarić with Johnson being you biggest forward. Where is the interior defense coming from?
What they need to upgrade is PF. They need somebody with some size who can start ahead of Crowder, with Johnson backing up Bridges. Then they can look at getting a third guard who can back up the starters.
Paul doesn't have much tread left on the tires. There isn't much margin for error when it comes to winning a title. The made a couple of big mistakes last offseason in extending the contract of Shamet and not picking up the option on Smith. They can't afford to take any more backwards steps this offseason. Their window is open, but it won't stay open for long if they rely on Paul so much all year long.
They’ll have to get there by way of Celts and GSW and perhaps the Mavs: Lots of scoring wings, good ball handling, and lots of defense. Interior D doesn’t count as much as it has in the past. To get a title, you need perimeter defense and to cut off the passing lanes. Suns can’t afford to go into next year with glut of catch and shoot wings who aren’t reliable in the post season. Someone has to put the ball on the deck and make a play.
If you take Cam Payne, Shamet, Crowder, and Ayton and can flip them for 2 starter level players who hang 20 ppg with good ball handling and defense, then I think that gets the job done. I’m sure we can swing another veteran min deal to fill in for quality minutes. Perhaps there’s a way to keep Cam Johnson. We’ve got our first round picks moving forward as well.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:05 pm
by JeremyG
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:09 pm
by Split T
Xin is mostly a troll account…he’s a good follow but you can’t take what he says seriously
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:31 am
by Shabazz
Good thread:
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:40 am
by Shabazz
My preference remains figuring out a way to keep him. However, I'd be OK with letting him go for a package that replaces 80% of what he gives us and augments us somewhere else, like Collins/Okongwu or WCJ/Cole Anthony/Isaac* (I'm not giving up! Watch defensive highlights of the dude and Imagine him with Mikal) for Ayton/Craig/Saric or Shamet (whatever is cap legal).
Trading him for table scraps (Nurkic+) is not palatable to me.
Letting him walk for nothing would be justification for leaving the fanbase until Sarver sells, IMO.
*Note on Isaac's contract, per Spotrac:
Due to missing entire 2021-22 season (in addition to missing >= 25 games), salaries for 2022-23, 2023-24 and 2024-25 become partial or non-guaranted:
2022-23: $16,000,000 guaranteed
2023-24: $7,400,000 guaranteed
2024-25: non-guaranteed
That's way more palatable to me
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:26 am
by sunset rubdown
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:36 pm
If I had to bet on any single player being the major "replacement" for Ayton it would be Jerami Grant.
His contract is in the ballpark of what the Suns could get in a sign-and-trade, so that covers the feasibility of the transaction.
He provides a lot of the supplementary ball handling and offensive production the Suns are looking for while still being very good defensively. I don't think there's any question if he'd fit into Monty's system.
I think the Suns could play a Grant and Johnson front court for stretches every night and it could become a really good playoff pairing against certain opponents.
His contract expiring after the 2022-23 season lines up with the start of Cam Johnson's next contract. Of course they would try to keep Grant around if the fit is good, but there seems to be a clear transition after the 2022-23 season if necessary. The Suns will also have the option of getting out of the remainder of Chris Paul's deal if they cut him before 6/28/2023, which I wouldn't be at all surprised if they choose to do it. So there's a pathway to signing a big free agent to pair with Booker in the post-Chris Paul era.
Jerami Grant left Nuggets because he wants to be a top 2 dog on his team and to be paid accordingly after next season. Imho, he is far from being top 2 player on a good playoff team.
I haven't really saw single DA trade proposal which makes us better, short term or long term.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:44 am
by ShelC
We also shouldn't assume that we'll fall off a cliff in a year or two if DA leaves and CP is still on the roster or on his way out. It's not "re-sign DA and we're good for the next 5 years" or "don't re-sign DA and we'll be back in the lottery for the next 5 years".
We've got a good rep now around the league, we've established the culture and guys like Book, Monty, Jones all have relationships with players and agents- there will be opportunities if/when other guys become available. A lot can happen in a year. Some fans thought signing Rubio was guaranteeing us mediocrity but it helped really turn us around and a year later we had CP and were in the Finals. If by some chance we lose DA this summer and end up with KD in December or next summer (maybe wishful thinking), then none of this really matters.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:06 am
by Mori Chu
If you can trade a bum like Ayton for a stud like Jakob Poeltl, you just gotta do it. #dynasty
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:56 am
by Split T
sunset rubdown wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:26 am
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:36 pm
If I had to bet on any single player being the major "replacement" for Ayton it would be Jerami Grant.
His contract is in the ballpark of what the Suns could get in a sign-and-trade, so that covers the feasibility of the transaction.
He provides a lot of the supplementary ball handling and offensive production the Suns are looking for while still being very good defensively. I don't think there's any question if he'd fit into Monty's system.
I think the Suns could play a Grant and Johnson front court for stretches every night and it could become a really good playoff pairing against certain opponents.
His contract expiring after the 2022-23 season lines up with the start of Cam Johnson's next contract. Of course they would try to keep Grant around if the fit is good, but there seems to be a clear transition after the 2022-23 season if necessary. The Suns will also have the option of getting out of the remainder of Chris Paul's deal if they cut him before 6/28/2023, which I wouldn't be at all surprised if they choose to do it. So there's a pathway to signing a big free agent to pair with Booker in the post-Chris Paul era.
Jerami Grant left Nuggets because he wants to be a top 2 dog on his team and to be paid accordingly after next season. Imho, he is far from being top 2 player on a good playoff team.
I haven't really saw single DA trade proposal which makes us better, short term or long term.
You maybe haven’t seen likely trade proposals, but there are ones where we get KD or where we get the #2 pick and SGA. Those 100% make us better.
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:27 am
by LazarusLong
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:06 am
If you can trade a bum like Ayton for a stud like Jakob Poeltl, you just gotta do it. #dynasty
Re: Suns Off-Season Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:53 am
by Indy
Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:40 am
My preference remains figuring out a way to keep him. However, I'd be OK with letting him go for a package that replaces 80% of what he gives us and augments us somewhere else, like Collins/Okongwu or WCJ/Cole Anthony/Isaac* (I'm not giving up! Watch defensive highlights of the dude and Imagine him with Mikal) for Ayton/Craig/Saric or Shamet (whatever is cap legal).
Trading him for table scraps (Nurkic+) is not palatable to me.
Letting him walk for nothing would be justification for leaving the fanbase until Sarver sells, IMO.
*Note on Isaac's contract, per Spotrac:
Due to missing entire 2021-22 season (in addition to missing >= 25 games), salaries for 2022-23, 2023-24 and 2024-25 become partial or non-guaranted:
2022-23: $16,000,000 guaranteed
2023-24: $7,400,000 guaranteed
2024-25: non-guaranteed
That's way more palatable to me
I think you would have to get rid of CP to bring in Isaac.