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Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:39 pm
by JeremyG
AmareIsGod wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:58 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:29 am
AmareIsGod wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:38 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:35 am
ShelC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:01 am
And just because another team did it with their player (Denver and MPJ) doesn't mean we should have and were wrong not to.
Why not? It seems to have worked out great for them. That's a funny argument to make considering Denver is in the Finals as we speak.
Denver being in the finals has ZERO to do with them overpaying MPJ. He's been pretty good but definitely not anywhere near the contract they paid him. "They grossly overpaid and are in the finals. We should grossly overpay too!".
Again,
They kept him happy. It worked. Also, it hasn't destroyed their ability to build a roster. I would love to have seen what would have happened if the Suns had not only not disrespected DA but also not alienated him (Monty).
You think if they paid him the largest max possible, no questions asked, he would have played like 2021 playoff (except the Finals when he struggled) Ayton? Come on. He'll NEVER be that kind of consistent player that plays to the max. He doesn't have it in him. He's a giant child and he lacks the kind of pair it takes to be a physical and dominant player regularly. You can't implant that between his ears.
He couldn't get over it, after 82 games, and with KD and Book on the roster? Playing alongside a guy like KD couldn't get him to lay off the weed during the postseason, floating around like an aloof bystander most plays?
He couldn't even play like a consistent DominAyton in college against a ton of bigs that never sniffed the NBA.
He was disrespected though and not paid the super max so why the hell should he honor his contract and play basketball with effort and force.
I'm not even talking about just his level of play. MPJ definitely does not play at a max level anyway (if you want to argue that DA did not). I'm talking about team chemistry and the relationship with the coach.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:23 pm
by Superbone
AmareIsGod wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:38 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:35 am
ShelC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:01 am
And just because another team did it with their player (Denver and MPJ) doesn't mean we should have and were wrong not to.
Why not? It seems to have worked out great for them. That's a funny argument to make considering Denver is in the Finals as we speak.
Denver being in the finals has ZERO to do with them overpaying MPJ. He's been pretty good but definitely not anywhere near the contract they paid him. "They grossly overpaid and are in the finals. We should grossly overpay too!".
Again,
At least he's playing better for them than Ayton was playing for us. If you want to tell me that Ayton would have played better if we had paid him more, then I'm done with him.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:43 pm
by The Bobster
By far, the most important thing once you have some stars is being healthy. The Suns would have had a fair chance of winning if they had managed to stay healthy down the stretch, but they didn't. Of course the rest of the West has had problems staying healthy the last few years (Leonard & George, Davis & James, Porter & Murray, Thompson & Curry), so you can't bitch if bad luck bites you in the ass. The Suns benefited from good luck in 2021 when they stayed healthy and made the Finals. The trick is finding the players who can stay healthy and keeping them that way. If you build around a Chris Paul or a Kawhi Leonard or an Anthony Davis or Kevin Durant, you're hoping that they don't get hurt at the wrong time. If they don't - you're screwed. The Clippers and Suns lost that gamble this year, the Nuggets and Lakers didn't (As for the Grizzlies, it didn't matter if they stayed healthy or not - they were a fucking mess by the end of the season).
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:59 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
I don’t think there’s a trick to finding healthy players. It’s just luck. Full stop.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:28 pm
by The Bobster
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:59 pm
I don’t think there’s a trick to finding healthy players. It’s just luck. Full stop.
There's no trick to it, but there are some that you take on that you have to recognize the risk because of their past hiostory - Paul, Davis, Leonard and Durant among them.
In a league where there's no single dominant favorite the heath of a stars at a crucial time can really tip the scales.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:52 pm
by Mori Chu
TOO wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:13 pm
Ayton discourse on this forum has reached it's end. I for one can no longer argue in circles about the same thing.
Looking forward to next year.
My dude, we are still talking about Joe Johnson on here. Buckle up.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:19 pm
by INFORMER
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:58 am
So long story short, they had their depth and their top 2 in place. We had to sacrifice our depth to get a top 2.
Exactly. I think it should also be noted that Murray isn't an all-time great; he can play like a superstar some nights, but he is more a second tier guy. I think the Jokic-Murray pairing is more comparable to a Booker-Scrimmage Bridges pairing, than it is a Booker-Durant pairing.
Denver can fade MPJ being overpaid because they already had their pieces to complete their team. MPJ is basically playing the role Andrew Wiggins plays on the Warriors now and last year.
You can't operate the way James Jones has and end up with a team like Denver. The Suns gave four assets to get an All-Star at the end of his career in Chris Paul. They gave up more assets than I even want to count to bring in Kevin Durant. When Denver used their midlevel exception, they got Bruce Brown; when Phoenix used their midlevel exception, they got JaVale McGee. The Suns could have Jalen Smith playing the Kevon Looney role on a rookie salary, but instead they have a max center who is a par-time impact player. All of this adds up and has caught up to the Suns.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:02 pm
by Mori Chu
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:19 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:58 am
So long story short, they had their depth and their top 2 in place. We had to sacrifice our depth to get a top 2.
Exactly. I think it should also be noted that Murray isn't an all-time great; he can play like a superstar some nights, but he is more a second tier guy. I think the Jokic-Murray pairing is more comparable to a Booker-Scrimmage Bridges pairing, than it is a Booker-Durant pairing.
Denver can fade MPJ being overpaid because they already had their pieces to complete their team. MPJ is basically playing the role Andrew Wiggins plays on the Warriors now and last year.
You can't operate the way James Jones has and end up with a team like Denver. The Suns gave four assets to get an All-Star at the end of his career in Chris Paul. They gave up more assets than I even want to count to bring in Kevin Durant. When Denver used their midlevel exception, they got Bruce Brown; when Phoenix used their midlevel exception, they got JaVale McGee. The Suns could have Jalen Smith playing the Kevon Looney role on a rookie salary, but instead they have a max center who is a par-time impact player. All of this adds up and has caught up to the Suns.
The offseason hasn't even started yet. But when you consider the CBA and hard cap limits, I'm not sure how you turn this Suns roster in to a real title contender with depth. We have so little cap space and so few assets to trade. I don't like to be pessimistic but I think we may be screwed.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:06 am
by SunsSince92
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:02 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:19 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:58 am
So long story short, they had their depth and their top 2 in place. We had to sacrifice our depth to get a top 2.
Exactly. I think it should also be noted that Murray isn't an all-time great; he can play like a superstar some nights, but he is more a second tier guy. I think the Jokic-Murray pairing is more comparable to a Booker-Scrimmage Bridges pairing, than it is a Booker-Durant pairing.
Denver can fade MPJ being overpaid because they already had their pieces to complete their team. MPJ is basically playing the role Andrew Wiggins plays on the Warriors now and last year.
You can't operate the way James Jones has and end up with a team like Denver. The Suns gave four assets to get an All-Star at the end of his career in Chris Paul. They gave up more assets than I even want to count to bring in Kevin Durant. When Denver used their midlevel exception, they got Bruce Brown; when Phoenix used their midlevel exception, they got JaVale McGee. The Suns could have Jalen Smith playing the Kevon Looney role on a rookie salary, but instead they have a max center who is a par-time impact player. All of this adds up and has caught up to the Suns.
The offseason hasn't even started yet. But when you consider the CBA and hard cap limits, I'm not sure how you turn this Suns roster in to a real title contender with depth. We have so little cap space and so few assets to trade. I don't like to be pessimistic but I think we may be screwed.
Despite being enthusiastic about the Vogel appointment I'm inclined to agree that we just don't have the assets to build a legit contender.
To pick up on Inf's point, I actually think we gave up multiple assets to bring in two all-stars at the end of their career in Paul and Durant. Whether we want to admit it or not, the Durant we acquired isn't playing at the same level that he was when he was at Golden State as age and injuries have taken their toll. His last two playoff runs have been pretty underwhelming despite playing alongside legit stars in Irving and Booker / Paul.
Maybe I'm wrong but assuming he makes it through a whole season without getting injured ( big assumption) I'm just not confident in his ability at 35 to lead a team to a championship.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:53 am
by virtual9mm
SunsSince92 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:06 am
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:02 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:19 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:58 am
So long story short, they had their depth and their top 2 in place. We had to sacrifice our depth to get a top 2.
Exactly. I think it should also be noted that Murray isn't an all-time great; he can play like a superstar some nights, but he is more a second tier guy. I think the Jokic-Murray pairing is more comparable to a Booker-Scrimmage Bridges pairing, than it is a Booker-Durant pairing.
Denver can fade MPJ being overpaid because they already had their pieces to complete their team. MPJ is basically playing the role Andrew Wiggins plays on the Warriors now and last year.
You can't operate the way James Jones has and end up with a team like Denver. The Suns gave four assets to get an All-Star at the end of his career in Chris Paul. They gave up more assets than I even want to count to bring in Kevin Durant. When Denver used their midlevel exception, they got Bruce Brown; when Phoenix used their midlevel exception, they got JaVale McGee. The Suns could have Jalen Smith playing the Kevon Looney role on a rookie salary, but instead they have a max center who is a par-time impact player. All of this adds up and has caught up to the Suns.
The offseason hasn't even started yet. But when you consider the CBA and hard cap limits, I'm not sure how you turn this Suns roster in to a real title contender with depth. We have so little cap space and so few assets to trade. I don't like to be pessimistic but I think we may be screwed.
Despite being enthusiastic about the Vogel appointment I'm inclined to agree that we just don't have the assets to build a legit contender.
To pick up on Inf's point, I actually think we gave up multiple assets to bring in two all-stars at the end of their career in Paul and Durant. Whether we want to admit it or not, the Durant we acquired isn't playing at the same level that he was when he was at Golden State as age and injuries have taken their toll. His last two playoff runs have been pretty underwhelming despite playing alongside legit stars in Irving and Booker / Paul.
Maybe I'm wrong but assuming he makes it through a whole season without getting injured ( big assumption) I'm just not confident in his ability at 35 to lead a team to a championship.
The only way out is to throw Chris Paul under the bus
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:20 am
by SunsSince92
virtual9mm wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:53 am
SunsSince92 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:06 am
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:02 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:19 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:58 am
So long story short, they had their depth and their top 2 in place. We had to sacrifice our depth to get a top 2.
Exactly. I think it should also be noted that Murray isn't an all-time great; he can play like a superstar some nights, but he is more a second tier guy. I think the Jokic-Murray pairing is more comparable to a Booker-Scrimmage Bridges pairing, than it is a Booker-Durant pairing.
Denver can fade MPJ being overpaid because they already had their pieces to complete their team. MPJ is basically playing the role Andrew Wiggins plays on the Warriors now and last year.
You can't operate the way James Jones has and end up with a team like Denver. The Suns gave four assets to get an All-Star at the end of his career in Chris Paul. They gave up more assets than I even want to count to bring in Kevin Durant. When Denver used their midlevel exception, they got Bruce Brown; when Phoenix used their midlevel exception, they got JaVale McGee. The Suns could have Jalen Smith playing the Kevon Looney role on a rookie salary, but instead they have a max center who is a par-time impact player. All of this adds up and has caught up to the Suns.
The offseason hasn't even started yet. But when you consider the CBA and hard cap limits, I'm not sure how you turn this Suns roster in to a real title contender with depth. We have so little cap space and so few assets to trade. I don't like to be pessimistic but I think we may be screwed.
Despite being enthusiastic about the Vogel appointment I'm inclined to agree that we just don't have the assets to build a legit contender.
To pick up on Inf's point, I actually think we gave up multiple assets to bring in two all-stars at the end of their career in Paul and Durant. Whether we want to admit it or not, the Durant we acquired isn't playing at the same level that he was when he was at Golden State as age and injuries have taken their toll. His last two playoff runs have been pretty underwhelming despite playing alongside legit stars in Irving and Booker / Paul.
Maybe I'm wrong but assuming he makes it through a whole season without getting injured ( big assumption) I'm just not confident in his ability at 35 to lead a team to a championship.
The only way out is to throw Chris Paul under the bus
I don't think we'll get enough back for Paul.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:25 am
by TOO
Idk, have you ever ran over something with a bus?
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:33 am
by Split T
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:02 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:19 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:58 am
So long story short, they had their depth and their top 2 in place. We had to sacrifice our depth to get a top 2.
Exactly. I think it should also be noted that Murray isn't an all-time great; he can play like a superstar some nights, but he is more a second tier guy. I think the Jokic-Murray pairing is more comparable to a Booker-Scrimmage Bridges pairing, than it is a Booker-Durant pairing.
Denver can fade MPJ being overpaid because they already had their pieces to complete their team. MPJ is basically playing the role Andrew Wiggins plays on the Warriors now and last year.
You can't operate the way James Jones has and end up with a team like Denver. The Suns gave four assets to get an All-Star at the end of his career in Chris Paul. They gave up more assets than I even want to count to bring in Kevin Durant. When Denver used their midlevel exception, they got Bruce Brown; when Phoenix used their midlevel exception, they got JaVale McGee. The Suns could have Jalen Smith playing the Kevon Looney role on a rookie salary, but instead they have a max center who is a par-time impact player. All of this adds up and has caught up to the Suns.
The offseason hasn't even started yet. But when you consider the CBA and hard cap limits, I'm not sure how you turn this Suns roster in to a real title contender with depth. We have so little cap space and so few assets to trade. I don't like to be pessimistic but I think we may be screwed.
I mean this team isn’t that far away. We took more games from the nuggets than anybody and that was basically with zero help outside Booker/Durant. It’s almost impossible to be as thin as we were last season.
It’s not that difficult to open up the MLE and BAE for this team and you can bring in 2-3 players with those exceptions. This team doesn’t need a 3rd star, just playoff rotation worthy guys.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:47 am
by Superbone
Split T wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:33 am
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:02 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:19 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:58 am
So long story short, they had their depth and their top 2 in place. We had to sacrifice our depth to get a top 2.
Exactly. I think it should also be noted that Murray isn't an all-time great; he can play like a superstar some nights, but he is more a second tier guy. I think the Jokic-Murray pairing is more comparable to a Booker-Scrimmage Bridges pairing, than it is a Booker-Durant pairing.
Denver can fade MPJ being overpaid because they already had their pieces to complete their team. MPJ is basically playing the role Andrew Wiggins plays on the Warriors now and last year.
You can't operate the way James Jones has and end up with a team like Denver. The Suns gave four assets to get an All-Star at the end of his career in Chris Paul. They gave up more assets than I even want to count to bring in Kevin Durant. When Denver used their midlevel exception, they got Bruce Brown; when Phoenix used their midlevel exception, they got JaVale McGee. The Suns could have Jalen Smith playing the Kevon Looney role on a rookie salary, but instead they have a max center who is a par-time impact player. All of this adds up and has caught up to the Suns.
The offseason hasn't even started yet. But when you consider the CBA and hard cap limits, I'm not sure how you turn this Suns roster in to a real title contender with depth. We have so little cap space and so few assets to trade. I don't like to be pessimistic but I think we may be screwed.
I mean this team isn’t that far away. We took more games from the nuggets than anybody and that was basically with zero help outside Booker/Durant. It’s almost impossible to be as thin as we were last season.
It’s not that difficult to open up the MLE and BAE for this team and you can bring in 2-3 players with those exceptions. This team doesn’t need a 3rd star, just playoff rotation worthy guys.
It's very possible that we will have won the most games in a playoff series this year against this Denver team which is pretty amazing considering how poorly Ayton played and nobody stepped up in the 5th starter role or helped much off the bench.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:14 am
by Charlie Smithy!
SunsSince92 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:06 am
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:02 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:19 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:58 am
So long story short, they had their depth and their top 2 in place. We had to sacrifice our depth to get a top 2.
Exactly. I think it should also be noted that Murray isn't an all-time great; he can play like a superstar some nights, but he is more a second tier guy. I think the Jokic-Murray pairing is more comparable to a Booker-Scrimmage Bridges pairing, than it is a Booker-Durant pairing.
Denver can fade MPJ being overpaid because they already had their pieces to complete their team. MPJ is basically playing the role Andrew Wiggins plays on the Warriors now and last year.
You can't operate the way James Jones has and end up with a team like Denver. The Suns gave four assets to get an All-Star at the end of his career in Chris Paul. They gave up more assets than I even want to count to bring in Kevin Durant. When Denver used their midlevel exception, they got Bruce Brown; when Phoenix used their midlevel exception, they got JaVale McGee. The Suns could have Jalen Smith playing the Kevon Looney role on a rookie salary, but instead they have a max center who is a par-time impact player. All of this adds up and has caught up to the Suns.
The offseason hasn't even started yet. But when you consider the CBA and hard cap limits, I'm not sure how you turn this Suns roster in to a real title contender with depth. We have so little cap space and so few assets to trade. I don't like to be pessimistic but I think we may be screwed.
Despite being enthusiastic about the Vogel appointment I'm inclined to agree that we just don't have the assets to build a legit contender.
To pick up on Inf's point, I actually think we gave up multiple assets to bring in two all-stars at the end of their career in Paul and Durant. Whether we want to admit it or not, the Durant we acquired isn't playing at the same level that he was when he was at Golden State as age and injuries have taken their toll. His last two playoff runs have been pretty underwhelming despite playing alongside legit stars in Irving and Booker / Paul.
Maybe I'm wrong but assuming he makes it through a whole season without getting injured ( big assumption) I'm just not confident in his ability at 35 to lead a team to a championship.
It won't happen for so many reasons, but I would ship Kevin Durant back for Bridges, yesterday.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:42 am
by Split T
Without all the picks? Just straight up for Mikal?
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:14 am
by Kryptonic
Split T wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:42 am
Without all the picks? Just straight up for Mikal?
Give me half the picks and kal back and I’d be thrilled….
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:44 am
by SunsSince92
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:14 am
Split T wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:42 am
Without all the picks? Just straight up for Mikal?
Give me half the picks and kal back and I’d be thrilled….
Yeah, Bridges and a couple of picks would be enough.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:59 pm
by INFORMER
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:02 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:19 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:58 am
So long story short, they had their depth and their top 2 in place. We had to sacrifice our depth to get a top 2.
Exactly. I think it should also be noted that Murray isn't an all-time great; he can play like a superstar some nights, but he is more a second tier guy. I think the Jokic-Murray pairing is more comparable to a Booker-Scrimmage Bridges pairing, than it is a Booker-Durant pairing.
Denver can fade MPJ being overpaid because they already had their pieces to complete their team. MPJ is basically playing the role Andrew Wiggins plays on the Warriors now and last year.
You can't operate the way James Jones has and end up with a team like Denver. The Suns gave four assets to get an All-Star at the end of his career in Chris Paul. They gave up more assets than I even want to count to bring in Kevin Durant. When Denver used their midlevel exception, they got Bruce Brown; when Phoenix used their midlevel exception, they got JaVale McGee. The Suns could have Jalen Smith playing the Kevon Looney role on a rookie salary, but instead they have a max center who is a par-time impact player. All of this adds up and has caught up to the Suns.
The offseason hasn't even started yet. But when you consider the CBA and hard cap limits, I'm not sure how you turn this Suns roster in to a real title contender with depth. We have so little cap space and so few assets to trade. I don't like to be pessimistic but I think we may be screwed.
Well I was reflecting what has happened, not what will happen.
I think the Suns have put themselves in a really difficult position, but I think they are only "screwed" if they insist on going forward with Paul and Ayton.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 1:11 pm
by INFORMER
SunsSince92 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:06 am
Whether we want to admit it or not, the Durant we acquired isn't playing at the same level that he was when he was at Golden State as age and injuries have taken their toll.
I don't think that is true. I think people just overrated Durant and fixate on how great his numbers look instead of looking at the results. He was a big part of OKC giving up their 3-1 lead to Golden State. It was early in his career, his finals appearance with OKC was certainly hurt by Playoff Harden, but he didn't do much to overcome it.
Golden State was the perfect situation for him, where he could just be a hired gun and Steph and Klay could take heat off of him.
Don't get me wrong; he is an all-time great. But I think the level of contention he brings to a team isn't as high as some believed.
SunsSince92 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:06 am
Maybe I'm wrong but assuming he makes it through a whole season without getting injured ( big assumption) I'm just not confident in his ability at 35 to lead a team to a championship.
Well I think that is Booker's job, and KD's job is to help Booker. It could work; I just don't think it has a good chance to.
