Phx-Suns.Net

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:08 am

Ah, time for the annual phx-suns.net tradition of being offended by the over-under line and proclaiming the over an easy bet.

Hey, but there was that one time in the last 12 years where that worked out! Surely it will happen again!

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:33 am

It is incredible what we currently have at PG.

It certainly is. We’re such a gory train wreck we should be rated at least PG-13 on that basis alone. And then all the logjamming should earn us a hard R.

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:33 am

I don't know about the over. My first instinct was to disagree with the Vegas prediction and think that the over was easy money, but the West somehow became even more brutal, and for a team supposedly looking to leave tanking behind, the offseason leaves a lot to be desired.

It is incredible what we currently have at PG, plus the logjam at the wings. Basically everything besides Booker-Ayton (on offense) is a question mark. To me it is totally unacceptable to enter the season like that, especially when you are not going to be in a privileged situation cap wise next year, as half the league is going to be players for FAs.

This reeks of 'year 2 of a rebuilding proyect', not 'enough with the tanking, let's go get wins'; but, of course, I'll gladly be wrong and enjoy a surprise season full of harmony, development and sensible play. Just see too much 'but' and 'why' to buy it.

I agree that it feels like that, but it should be Year 4. The problem was that the picks the previous two years(Bender, Chriss, Ulis, Jackson, & Reed) haven't looked all that great yet. If they had, it would feel a lot more like Year 4 than Year 2. I'm trying to optimistic that these guys can somehow make a jump under Igor and what he's been drilling in them this off-season and shoring up their skills and holes in their game for the NBA level. Honestly, if these guys don't show a ton of improvement this season, I don't see McD keeping his job past the last day of the regular season.

McD whiffed on Bender and Chriss. It was a bad draft, but he doubled down and came away with nothing for two top 10 picks. That sets a franchise back a few years. There's just no getting around that. Jackson is a player, but his ceiling will be somewhat limited because of his offense. Same with Bridges. If Ayton isn't that generational big....well, good luck for the next 3 years.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:56 pm

McD whiffed on Bender and Chriss. It was a bad draft, but he doubled down and came away with nothing for two top 10 picks. That sets a franchise back a few years. There's just no getting around that. Jackson is a player, but his ceiling will be somewhat limited because of his offense. Same with Bridges. If Ayton isn't that generational big....well, good luck for the next 3 years.

This.

That was the largest I could make the text. If I could make it larger, I would. The giant F on that draft really sucks. And if, by any chance, we whiffed again this year, we will be hearing about future all-nba players wanting out of PHX.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:56 pm

McD whiffed on Bender and Chriss. It was a bad draft, but he doubled down and came away with nothing for two top 10 picks. That sets a franchise back a few years. There's just no getting around that. Jackson is a player, but his ceiling will be somewhat limited because of his offense. Same with Bridges. If Ayton isn't that generational big....well, good luck for the next 3 years.

If he didn’t whiff on those two picks, we would not have gotten the opportunity to draft Ayton. Not saying I’m glad they suck, just that’s where we’re at. Yes, if he turns out to be anything but a star, this franchise is looking at a looooooooong era of continued suck. There is a lot of pressure for Ayton to look the part this year.

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:04 pm

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:56 pm

McD whiffed on Bender and Chriss. It was a bad draft, but he doubled down and came away with nothing for two top 10 picks. That sets a franchise back a few years. There's just no getting around that. Jackson is a player, but his ceiling will be somewhat limited because of his offense. Same with Bridges. If Ayton isn't that generational big....well, good luck for the next 3 years.

This.

That was the largest I could make the text. If I could make it larger, I would. The giant F on that draft really sucks. And if, by any chance, we whiffed again this year, we will be hearing about future all-nba players wanting out of PHX.

He set the franchise back a few years by missing out on... Jamal Murray and Domantas Sabonis? Just what should he have done with those picks that would have had us so much better off than Bender and Chriss?

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:51 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:04 pm

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:56 pm

McD whiffed on Bender and Chriss. It was a bad draft, but he doubled down and came away with nothing for two top 10 picks. That sets a franchise back a few years. There's just no getting around that. Jackson is a player, but his ceiling will be somewhat limited because of his offense. Same with Bridges. If Ayton isn't that generational big....well, good luck for the next 3 years.

This.

That was the largest I could make the text. If I could make it larger, I would. The giant F on that draft really sucks. And if, by any chance, we whiffed again this year, we will be hearing about future all-nba players wanting out of PHX.

He set the franchise back a few years by missing out on... Jamal Murray and Domantas Sabonis? Just what should he have done with those picks that would have had us so much better off than Bender and Chriss?

He turned a #4 pick, a #13 pick, and Bogdanovich into nothing. Zilch. Even if you say there was nobody worth taking at 4, or 13, he could have kept Bogdanovich. Nobody would trade Chriss for him straight up right now, much less what we paid.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:56 pm

McD whiffed on Bender and Chriss. It was a bad draft, but he doubled down and came away with nothing for two top 10 picks. That sets a franchise back a few years. There's just no getting around that. Jackson is a player, but his ceiling will be somewhat limited because of his offense. Same with Bridges. If Ayton isn't that generational big....well, good luck for the next 3 years.

I agree with and fear this.

Bogs was a star in Europe, had all the makings of a nice starter/high end 6th man in the NBA and his prospective contract as a rookie was of no concern given the situation of the team. I hated it when I learned we traded his rights. On the other hand, Chriss was a low IQ prospect with incredibly overrated athleticism. It's fine if you want to move up and gamble on him figuring it out, but #13 and #28 was more than enough. And then, drafting two PFs (with high bust potential, no less) in the same draft is the same dumb thing Minni did with Rubio and Flynn.

In2ition wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:23 pm

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:33 am

I don't know about the over. My first instinct was to disagree with the Vegas prediction and think that the over was easy money, but the West somehow became even more brutal, and for a team supposedly looking to leave tanking behind, the offseason leaves a lot to be desired.

It is incredible what we currently have at PG, plus the logjam at the wings. Basically everything besides Booker-Ayton (on offense) is a question mark. To me it is totally unacceptable to enter the season like that, especially when you are not going to be in a privileged situation cap wise next year, as half the league is going to be players for FAs.

This reeks of 'year 2 of a rebuilding proyect', not 'enough with the tanking, let's go get wins'; but, of course, I'll gladly be wrong and enjoy a surprise season full of harmony, development and sensible play. Just see too much 'but' and 'why' to buy it.

I agree that it feels like that, but it should be Year 4. The problem was that the picks the previous two years(Bender, Chriss, Ulis, Jackson, & Reed) haven't looked all that great yet. If they had, it would feel a lot more like Year 4 than Year 2. I'm trying to optimistic that these guys can somehow make a jump under Igor and what he's been drilling in them this off-season and shoring up their skills and holes in their game for the NBA level. Honestly, if these guys don't show a ton of improvement this season, I don't see McD keeping his job past the last day of the regular season.

Strategically and credit wise, to me this was the do or die offseason for the GM and the critical time to make unquestionably solid moves after the tanking and the #1 pick. Ayton-Igor is good enough (again, to me) but the rest of the offseason has been a huge disappointment. In a vacuum you can find a way to be ok with everything, but the roster as a whole had to make perfect sense entering the season, yet look at what we have instead. All the assets, all the flexibility, all the impetus to be back to the highly respectable status this franchise has had almost forever and here we are, unnecessarily needing to make jumps of faith and mental gymnastics to justify impotence and/or redundancy, and I am not even talking in the context of achieving legitimate goals like the playoffs, just in terms of self improvement. This is not acceptable and the more I think about it the more pissed I get.

As for the recent draftees, Chriss, should have been traded, Bender should be on his last chance to show some balls and I would have looked hard at Jackson's market, particularly once Bridges was acquired. It's comical that you can't get a real NBA player if you merge those three kids.

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:51 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:04 pm

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:56 pm

McD whiffed on Bender and Chriss. It was a bad draft, but he doubled down and came away with nothing for two top 10 picks. That sets a franchise back a few years. There's just no getting around that. Jackson is a player, but his ceiling will be somewhat limited because of his offense. Same with Bridges. If Ayton isn't that generational big....well, good luck for the next 3 years.

This.

That was the largest I could make the text. If I could make it larger, I would. The giant F on that draft really sucks. And if, by any chance, we whiffed again this year, we will be hearing about future all-nba players wanting out of PHX.

He set the franchise back a few years by missing out on... Jamal Murray and Domantas Sabonis? Just what should he have done with those picks that would have had us so much better off than Bender and Chriss?

I don't want to beat a horse on this because we've been thru it. For me, I was a big fan of Sabonis in general and he's proven to be a capable big. We could've taken him at 4, which would've been a reach, or traded back to 8 and taken him. But McD liked Bender and Watson liked Chriss so we took both. That's not sound decision making. That's the organization being run by a bunch of amateurs. The red flags were there with Chriss from the onset.

If it were me, honestly, I would've traded out of the draft altogether for a future 1st in '17 or '18.

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:59 pm

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:51 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:04 pm

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:56 pm

McD whiffed on Bender and Chriss. It was a bad draft, but he doubled down and came away with nothing for two top 10 picks. That sets a franchise back a few years. There's just no getting around that. Jackson is a player, but his ceiling will be somewhat limited because of his offense. Same with Bridges. If Ayton isn't that generational big....well, good luck for the next 3 years.

This.

That was the largest I could make the text. If I could make it larger, I would. The giant F on that draft really sucks. And if, by any chance, we whiffed again this year, we will be hearing about future all-nba players wanting out of PHX.

He set the franchise back a few years by missing out on... Jamal Murray and Domantas Sabonis? Just what should he have done with those picks that would have had us so much better off than Bender and Chriss?

He turned a #4 pick, a #13 pick, and Bogdanovich into nothing. Zilch. Even if you say there was nobody worth taking at 4, or 13, he could have kept Bogdanovich. Nobody would trade Chriss for him straight up right now, much less what we paid.

I see. If McD weren’t such an idiot, we could have Murray and Bogdanovic logjamming behind Booker instead of being stuck with Bender and Chriss. Yes, that certainly set the franchise back a few years.

<———— still on Bender Island.

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:33 am

I don't know about the over. My first instinct was to disagree with the Vegas prediction and think that the over was easy money, but the West somehow became even more brutal, and for a team supposedly looking to leave tanking behind, the offseason leaves a lot to be desired.

It is incredible what we currently have at PG, plus the logjam at the wings. Basically everything besides Booker-Ayton (on offense) is a question mark. To me it is totally unacceptable to enter the season like that, especially when you are not going to be in a privileged situation cap wise next year, as half the league is going to be players for FAs.

This reeks of 'year 2 of a rebuilding proyect', not 'enough with the tanking, let's go get wins'; but, of course, I'll gladly be wrong and enjoy a surprise season full of harmony, development and sensible play. Just see too much 'but' and 'why' to buy it.

Not sure I share your concerns offensively. We added significant shooting around the booker-Ayton pairing with Ariza/Bridges. Warren/Jackson have questions about their jump shots, but Warren is a very effective offensive player still. Jackson has further questions, but he's promising, just a work in progress. I know most aren't expecting anything from Knight, but at worst he's still an upgrade from the crapfest we trotted out at PG last year.

All I'll say on the Bender/Chriss front is that they've clearly been misses so far. I don't think the book is closed on them, they can both still become useful, but to expect them to be contributors is not smart.

Still, I'm with Cap here. The fact that the rest of the draft also sucks makes it easier to stomach. If we could go back, I guess I'd take Murray/Sabonis but if we're exchanging picks, drafting Mitchell over Jackson would be my first swap by far. Then probably Isaac over Jackson.

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:47 pm

Not sure I share your concerns offensively. We added significant shooting around the booker-Ayton pairing with Ariza/Bridges. Warren/Jackson have questions about their jump shots, but Warren is a very effective offensive player still. Jackson has further questions, but he's promising, just a work in progress. I know most aren't expecting anything from Knight, but at worst he's still an upgrade from the crapfest we trotted out at PG last year.

In the case of Ariza and Bridges the questions don't come from the kind of game they play. I agree they are a couple of 3D wings and we needed that. The problem is going to be playing time. Ariza, Bridges, Jackson and Warren are all wings and minutes will be tight even if you want to experiment with them at PF some (and that's not even counting Bender and Chriss). This kind of juggling can lead to a number of guys very unsatisfied. This offseason was not meant to bring this problem yet again.

As for Knight, at worst he is even worse than what we had last year if he keeps turning the ball over, playing hero ball, missing shots and making dumb decisions. Canaan was better as a PG, which is crazy.

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:27 pm

<———— still on Bender Island.

I am with you on the island. I can still think we screwed up that draft, though.

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:58 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:59 pm

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:51 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:04 pm

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:56 pm

McD whiffed on Bender and Chriss. It was a bad draft, but he doubled down and came away with nothing for two top 10 picks. That sets a franchise back a few years. There's just no getting around that. Jackson is a player, but his ceiling will be somewhat limited because of his offense. Same with Bridges. If Ayton isn't that generational big....well, good luck for the next 3 years.

This.

That was the largest I could make the text. If I could make it larger, I would. The giant F on that draft really sucks. And if, by any chance, we whiffed again this year, we will be hearing about future all-nba players wanting out of PHX.

He set the franchise back a few years by missing out on... Jamal Murray and Domantas Sabonis? Just what should he have done with those picks that would have had us so much better off than Bender and Chriss?

He turned a #4 pick, a #13 pick, and Bogdanovich into nothing. Zilch. Even if you say there was nobody worth taking at 4, or 13, he could have kept Bogdanovich. Nobody would trade Chriss for him straight up right now, much less what we paid.

I see. If McD weren’t such an idiot, we could have Murray and Bogdanovic logjamming behind Booker instead of being stuck with Bender and Chriss. Yes, that certainly set the franchise back a few years.

Be sarcastic all you want, but if you can't see that Bogdanovich would have been a big help on our team, I don't know what to say.

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:49 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:47 pm

Not sure I share your concerns offensively. We added significant shooting around the booker-Ayton pairing with Ariza/Bridges. Warren/Jackson have questions about their jump shots, but Warren is a very effective offensive player still. Jackson has further questions, but he's promising, just a work in progress. I know most aren't expecting anything from Knight, but at worst he's still an upgrade from the crapfest we trotted out at PG last year.

In the case of Ariza and Bridges the questions don't come from the kind of game they play. I agree they are a couple of 3D wings and we needed that. The problem is going to be playing time. Ariza, Bridges, Jackson and Warren are all wings and minutes will be tight even if you want to experiment with them at PF some (and that's not even counting Bender and Chriss). This kind of juggling can lead to a number of guys very unsatisfied. This offseason was not meant to bring this problem yet again.

As for Knight, at worst he is even worse than what we had last year if he keeps turning the ball over, playing hero ball, missing shots and making dumb decisions. Canaan was better as a PG, which is crazy.

That's fair. Minute distribution will be interesting. As for Knight, he was awful in 2016, but I think you're overrating Canaan because the rest of our pg's were so bad. In by far his worst season, Knight was 19/4/4 with 2.8 turnovers per 36 and shot .40/.33
Canaan was 15/6/4 with 2.5 turnovers and shot .38/.33

So Canaan is a better playmaker, takes care of the ball a little better, but those numbers are pretty evenly matched. I think the chances Knight is that bad again are incredibly low, so Canaan better have improved if he's a better option than Knight.