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To me the point is that Jordan was the best offensive AND defensive (or at least the second best defensive) when he played. You can't say that about Lebron (or Russel, or Kareem, or anyone really).

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:16 pm

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 1:17 pm

Notice I said “at least as far as talent and overall individual play.” When it comes to winning and rising to meet the moment and leading a team to great heights, Jordan was better.

And Bill was taller than MJ.

Ftfy.

Could any of LeBron’s, Bill’s or Wilt’s teams have contended for a championship with their alpha playing baseball and Pete Myers taking his place?

Furlanfufi wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:50 pm

To me the point is that Jordan was the best offensive AND defensive (or at least the second best defensive) when he played. You can't say that about Lebron (or Russel, or Kareem, or anyone really).

Kobe?

Best defensive player in the league? Or on his team? Jordan was definitely not the best defensive player in the league

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 9:37 pm

Best defensive player in the league? Or on his team? Jordan was definitely not the best defensive player in the league

He won a DPOY, three steals titles, and nine times All-Defensive First Team.

Only Duncan, KG, Kobe, Kareem and Pippen have more ADFT appearances than MJ.

Do you think he was better than Hakeem?

I'm not sure he was better than Hakeem, or even his own teammate Pippen, but he was one of the best few in the league for a very long time.

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 9:35 pm

Furlanfufi wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:50 pm

To me the point is that Jordan was the best offensive AND defensive (or at least the second best defensive) when he played. You can't say that about Lebron (or Russel, or Kareem, or anyone really).

Kobe?

Kobe was not on MJ level on both sides.

Furlanfufi wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:08 am

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 9:35 pm

Furlanfufi wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:50 pm

To me the point is that Jordan was the best offensive AND defensive (or at least the second best defensive) when he played. You can't say that about Lebron (or Russel, or Kareem, or anyone really).

Kobe?

Kobe was not on MJ level on both sides.

I disagree. Kobe the basketball player was incredible.

wpmiller42 wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 10:16 am

Furlanfufi wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:08 am

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 9:35 pm

Furlanfufi wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:50 pm

To me the point is that Jordan was the best offensive AND defensive (or at least the second best defensive) when he played. You can't say that about Lebron (or Russel, or Kareem, or anyone really).

Kobe?

Kobe was not on MJ level on both sides.

I disagree. Kobe the basketball player was incredible.

Nobody said he wasn't but Jordan was even better.

To me the thing that will always put MJ above Lebron is his competitiveness and his killer instinct. Lebron has always been mellower, calmer, meeker than MJ. If Jordan was playing against you in a series and a title was on the line, he would get effing MAD and want to personally destroy you. He would go out there and dominate you and assert his will and just force his team to win no matter what. I watched his whole prime, and once MJ was in winning mode, you just know that beyond a shadow of a doubt, he was going to go out there and get his team the win and take that title no matter what the opponent did. They had no chance.

Lebron has had multiple, for lack of a better word, "beta" moments in his career where he let his team lose or choke in a big series or Finals or game, and they'd cut the camera to him and he'd be standing or sitting there with a sour puss "aw shucks" look on his face as his team got eliminated. I know basketball is a team sport, and Lebron or MJ cannot single-handedly determine who their teammates or opponents are or completely decide a game or series. But MJ just absolutely never let that happen. Every time his team was in line to win a title, he erupted in furious rage and anger and supreme talent and took that damn title. Lebron has gotten his ass kicked in the Finals more than he's won it. Congrats to him on getting to the Finals so many times, that is a great accomplishment. But if Lebron had MJ's mentality he would have grabbed more of those titles rather than just letting another team take them from him.

Lebron can never be the GOAT to me when I saw MJ so completely dominate every Finals he ever played in, have such total control over the outcome and over his own destiny. That killer mentality is the one and only thing missing from Lebron's game. (side note: Kobe DID have that MJ mentality; he got it.)

What about 1995 vs Orlando? Where was Alpha Jordan in that series?

Split T wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 11:49 am

What about 1995 vs Orlando? Where was Alpha Jordan in that series?

You mean the year where he came back from playing baseball to play 17 games and averaged 26.9 ppg( his lowest in 11 years? That’s weak and you know it Split. His head wasn’t back in basketball mode. What did he do the next year? Back to averaging over 30 and winning another championship.

SunsRIt wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:47 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 11:49 am

What about 1995 vs Orlando? Where was Alpha Jordan in that series?

You mean the year where he came back from playing baseball to play 17 games and averaged 26.9 ppg( his lowest in 11 years? That’s weak and you know it Split. His head wasn’t back in basketball mode. What did he do the next year? Back to averaging over 30 and winning another championship.

Put LeBron or Kobe on that Bulls team and I imagine you get similar results.

I wonder how different MJ’s legacy would be without the phantom foul that eliminated them in ‘94.

Hue Hollins, at the Garden.

SunsRIt wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:47 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 11:49 am

What about 1995 vs Orlando? Where was Alpha Jordan in that series?

You mean the year where he came back from playing baseball to play 17 games and averaged 26.9 ppg( his lowest in 11 years? That’s weak and you know it Split. His head wasn’t back in basketball mode. What did he do the next year? Back to averaging over 30 and winning another championship.

He averaged 31.5 per game in the playoffs. Maybe it took him a few games to get back into it in the regular season, but he was ready by the playoffs. I think it’s weak when MJ supporters ignore that season. He played, he was still very good, and the Bulls lost to a better team. But it ruins the argument that Jordan never lost in his prime so we got to explain it away. “He was in baseball shape, not basketball.”

A few little things go differently and the ‘94 Bulls win the title without him. What would that have done to the narrative?

That team was stacked. It wasn’t Jordan and Friends. It was a ridonkulously great team that the league’s greatest player was lucky to be on.

Ayton might lose his starting job by the time he gets back.