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Pretty primadonna move by him.

I think a lot of people are pooh-poohing Doncic because past Europeans taken in the lottery — Bargnani, Milicic, Bender, Tskitishvili, etc. — have disappointed. They seem to be missing the fact that Doncic was MVP of a league where those other prospects couldn’t get their asses off of the bench (and got their butts kicked in the limited time they did get).

It’s hard to know exactly what Doncic’s European success means for his NBA future. What he has accomplished is unpredecented, so there simply aren’t any historical comparables from which to extrapolate. Bargnani et alia aren’t it.

Casey provided his reasoning. He said he's played in the same leagues as Doncic and that the athleticism he lacks will be exposed to a much higher degree in the NBA. That if teams want to run him as a PG, he won't be able to stay with other PG's or easily blow by NBA level athleticism. He also noted that he averaged 20 points a game in college and had a torrid NBA career averaging a blistering 4 points per game. That his lack of athleticism was exposed in the NBA. That's where his comparison of tiers is coming from. He isn't just outright trashing him as a player. He was saying that the athleticism concerns of Doncic are enough to keep him out of the top 3 or 4 in the draft conversations.

Same things said about Harden, Nash, Reddick, Curry and others. And I don't love the thought of Doncic defensively, but he can be hidden or less exposed if Jackson can take the next step as a defender and switch onto PGs.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:35 pm

Same things said about Harden, Nash, Reddick, Curry and others. And I don't love the thought of Doncic defensively, but he can be hidden or less exposed if Jackson can take the next step as a defender and switch onto PGs.

Same thing said about countless others who failed, so it is a justifiable concern.

Whether he has the game to overcome his (relative) lack of athleticism in the question.

Also, you just don't play him at PG. You use him as a point forward. As he grows into his body, he'll be strong enough to guard most big forwards.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:35 pm

Same things said about Harden, Nash, Reddick, Curry and others. And I don't love the thought of Doncic defensively, but he can be hidden or less exposed if Jackson can take the next step as a defender and switch onto PGs.

And Jimmer, Mike Dunleavy, Adam Morrison...

I don't think Doncic is a bust and I'm actually fine with taking him 1, as I think he's a special talent, but his athleticism concerns are real and that's why I think Ayton is a more likely star.

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Casey provided his reasoning. He said he's played in the same leagues as Doncic and that the athleticism he lacks will be exposed to a much higher degree in the NBA. That if teams want to run him as a PG, he won't be able to stay with other PG's or easily blow by NBA level athleticism. He also noted that he averaged 20 points a game in college and had a torrid NBA career averaging a blistering 4 points per game. That his lack of athleticism was exposed in the NBA. That's where his comparison of tiers is coming from. He isn't just outright trashing him as a player. He was saying that the athleticism concerns of Doncic are enough to keep him out of the top 3 or 4 in the draft conversations.

I looked up Casey's Euroleague stats, and he's at 8.5 points, 2.4 rebounds, and 1.7 assists.

Doncic is quicker, stronger, taller, and jumps better than Casey. I don't expect him to stay in front of Westbrook or dunk like D. Mitchell, but he'll be fine guarding forwards.

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:18 pm

Also, you just don't play him at PG. You use him as a point forward. As he grows into his body, he'll be strong enough to guard most big forwards.

The “being a facilitator means having to guard the other team’s quickest player” criticism is, um, weird. But it seems to come up a lot.

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:53 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Casey provided his reasoning. He said he's played in the same leagues as Doncic and that the athleticism he lacks will be exposed to a much higher degree in the NBA. That if teams want to run him as a PG, he won't be able to stay with other PG's or easily blow by NBA level athleticism. He also noted that he averaged 20 points a game in college and had a torrid NBA career averaging a blistering 4 points per game. That his lack of athleticism was exposed in the NBA. That's where his comparison of tiers is coming from. He isn't just outright trashing him as a player. He was saying that the athleticism concerns of Doncic are enough to keep him out of the top 3 or 4 in the draft conversations.

I looked up Casey's Euroleague stats, and he's at 8.5 points, 2.4 rebounds, and 1.7 assists.

Doncic is quicker, stronger, taller, and jumps better than Casey. I don't expect him to stay in front of Westbrook or dunk like D. Mitchell, but he'll be fine guarding forwards.

Great point.

Side note--I wish it was possible to like a post--that is a feature of BSOS that I really appreciate. Is that possible to do on this site?

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:53 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Casey provided his reasoning. He said he's played in the same leagues as Doncic and that the athleticism he lacks will be exposed to a much higher degree in the NBA. That if teams want to run him as a PG, he won't be able to stay with other PG's or easily blow by NBA level athleticism. He also noted that he averaged 20 points a game in college and had a torrid NBA career averaging a blistering 4 points per game. That his lack of athleticism was exposed in the NBA. That's where his comparison of tiers is coming from. He isn't just outright trashing him as a player. He was saying that the athleticism concerns of Doncic are enough to keep him out of the top 3 or 4 in the draft conversations.

I looked up Casey's Euroleague stats, and he's at 8.5 points, 2.4 rebounds, and 1.7 assists.

Doncic is quicker, stronger, taller, and jumps better than Casey. I don't expect him to stay in front of Westbrook or dunk like D. Mitchell, but he'll be fine guarding forwards.

I'm not so worried about his defense. It's his ability to create off the dribble. Can he beat a full court press? Can he get into the lane on offense as a primary ball handler? If he can't do those, I think his ceiling tops out as a do everything wing like Gordon Hayward. If he can do those things, then he could be a James Harden like lead guard.

Split T wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:17 pm

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:53 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Casey provided his reasoning. He said he's played in the same leagues as Doncic and that the athleticism he lacks will be exposed to a much higher degree in the NBA. That if teams want to run him as a PG, he won't be able to stay with other PG's or easily blow by NBA level athleticism. He also noted that he averaged 20 points a game in college and had a torrid NBA career averaging a blistering 4 points per game. That his lack of athleticism was exposed in the NBA. That's where his comparison of tiers is coming from. He isn't just outright trashing him as a player. He was saying that the athleticism concerns of Doncic are enough to keep him out of the top 3 or 4 in the draft conversations.

I looked up Casey's Euroleague stats, and he's at 8.5 points, 2.4 rebounds, and 1.7 assists.

Doncic is quicker, stronger, taller, and jumps better than Casey. I don't expect him to stay in front of Westbrook or dunk like D. Mitchell, but he'll be fine guarding forwards.

I'm not so worried about his defense. It's his ability to create off the dribble. Can he beat a full court press? Can he get into the lane on offense as a primary ball handler? If he can't do those, I think his ceiling tops out as a do everything wing like Gordon Hayward. If he can do those things, then he could be a James Harden like lead guard.

Exact same concerns about Dragic- overblown IMO

I don't think it's overblown... I'm not saying he went be able to overcome these obstacles, just that we don't know. It was a fair question for dragic and it's fair for Doncic. Just like rim protection is a fair question for Ayton.

Casey only played one year in the spanish league. And he was not great. He mostly played in the german league, which was really weak. Doncic is just the actual euroleague mvp (and the level of basketball is higher than back then)... sounds like a bitter man jealous of someone' success, not a pertinent analysis...

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Casey provided his reasoning. He said he's played in the same leagues as Doncic and that the athleticism he lacks will be exposed to a much higher degree in the NBA. That if teams want to run him as a PG, he won't be able to stay with other PG's or easily blow by NBA level athleticism. He also noted that he averaged 20 points a game in college and had a torrid NBA career averaging a blistering 4 points per game. That his lack of athleticism was exposed in the NBA. That's where his comparison of tiers is coming from. He isn't just outright trashing him as a player. He was saying that the athleticism concerns of Doncic are enough to keep him out of the top 3 or 4 in the draft conversations.

I don't think the reason Casey couldn't make it in the NBA was because of his lack of athleticism. I think he didn't pan out in the NBA because the one thing he could do well in college didn't translate to the NBA: Shoot 3's at an accurate clip. Therefore, comparing himself to Luka is invalid.

Luka is a talented basketball player and will find ways to be effective on the court. This has the same feeling with Oden vs Durant. I realize that Ayton doesn't have the injury concerns that Oden had but you always take the better basketball player and I believe Doncic is that player. Our three main weaknesses are passing, shooting 3's, and defense. I believe Luka will address at least two of those issues. This team needs more cohesiveness, it needs someone who's willing and wanting to pass. I'm hoping that Igor is in Ryan's ear about Luka but Gambo confirmed on the radio today that they're taking Ayton.

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:34 pm

3 prospects I'm lower on than the recent consensus: Kevin Knox, Colin Sexton, Zhaire Smith.

Kevin Knox is the one prospect in this draft that have absolutely no interest in. Which means Ryan will likely select him.

Split T wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:27 pm

I don't think it's overblown... I'm not saying he went be able to overcome these obstacles, just that we don't know. It was a fair question for dragic and it's fair for Doncic. Just like rim protection is a fair question for Ayton.

Agreed. Luka's ability to get by his man in the NBA is a legitimate concern, as it is a problem already in Europe. Defense is less of an issue to me, because even if he will never be mistaken for a lockdown defender, he is not lazy or clueless (and if you draft him you better have or look for a 3D PG anyway). Some people seem to think that Doncic is a limitless prospect, but his ceiling is not unquestionable given his relatively average athleticism.

On the other hand, the main issue is that the current NBA meta is not kind to big men who are not floor spacers OR rim protectors with switching ability. But at the same time, winning depends in a big part on your ability to impose your will instead of playing up to your opponent's style. I just can't ignore the potential of a Booker-Ayton combo and how tough would be for other teams to defend that, especially if you do your homework and provide Kokoskov with 3D guys. We even have already a potential extra handler in Jackson.

Anyway, at this point, we are just saying the same things about Doncic and Ayton with different words. Both prospects are terrific and the franchise will be back on the right direction. Honestly I am at peace with picking either. The really interesting part will be how the rest of the roster gets shaped after and how hard the team will go with win now moves.

I see absolutely no reason Ayton cannot be a plus defender switching and in the paint. It's up to him whether or not he wants to be, he's got every tool you could want for a big man, he just needs to do it.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:52 pm

Pretty primadonna move by him.

Jaren Jackson also is stonewalling Memphis. It is a dysfunctional organization with a dwindling fanbase even when they make the playoffs. They also have a dinosaur of a center that requires an offensive system not suitable for either player.

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:53 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Casey provided his reasoning. He said he's played in the same leagues as Doncic and that the athleticism he lacks will be exposed to a much higher degree in the NBA. That if teams want to run him as a PG, he won't be able to stay with other PG's or easily blow by NBA level athleticism. He also noted that he averaged 20 points a game in college and had a torrid NBA career averaging a blistering 4 points per game. That his lack of athleticism was exposed in the NBA. That's where his comparison of tiers is coming from. He isn't just outright trashing him as a player. He was saying that the athleticism concerns of Doncic are enough to keep him out of the top 3 or 4 in the draft conversations.

I looked up Casey's Euroleague stats, and he's at 8.5 points, 2.4 rebounds, and 1.7 assists.

Doncic is quicker, stronger, taller, and jumps better than Casey. I don't expect him to stay in front of Westbrook or dunk like D. Mitchell, but he'll be fine guarding forwards.

So, instead of actually considering what he says, you are going to look up his Euro league stats, compare them with Doncic, and then say that his opinion is not valid. Now how does that make any sense at all. CJ played in college and both leagues. He has seen Doncic play. His athleticism is and will be an issue.