Phx-Suns.Net

https://twitter.com/esidery/status/1036296620315271168

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:58 am

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:52 am

Sorry 'bone, no doom and gloom here. And no one is asking for pity. Just voicing legitimate concerns and simple analysis. Sorry it isn't a lovefest.

It is quite the opposite of a love fest which nobody asked for by the way. Doesn't sound very balanced. But please, continue...

Its hard to really judge McD on the trade in either direction until there is a signal about either a trade occuring or going into the season with the current roster.

With that said, it would not be the first time that the Suns went into a season under his watch where there appears to be an obvious problem with the roster construction, so it is hard for me to have a lot of faith in his ability to address the need with a fairly balanced trade. I am most worried about the team ending up on the bad end of a panic-trade, which has happened a few times in similar situations with him as the Suns GM.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:58 am

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:52 am

Sorry 'bone, no doom and gloom here. And no one is asking for pity. Just voicing legitimate concerns and simple analysis. Sorry it isn't a lovefest.

It is quite the opposite of a love fest which nobody asked for by the way. Doesn't sound very balanced. But please, continue...

So what angle is being neglected? Balance out the discussion for us.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:59 am

https://twitter.com/esidery/status/1036296620315271168

I hope they work out a contract with him.

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:32 am

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:09 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:23 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:49 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:15 pm

Who's underrating him? All I see is people who think he's the missing piece like Nash was to those 7SOL teams and some who realize he's just an average PG at the end of his prime.

Well you and FF for starters. THE missing piece? I'm not reading that. He is better than average. End of his prime is debatable. How many more years did Nash play? Dragic keeps himself in very good shape from what I see. He would help us elevate our win totals in Igor's system. No doubt in my mind.

Maybe I should have said average starting PG. There's probably 12-13 guys I'd take over him. Dragic is 32, and has seen a drop in productivity. Mostly in his ability to get to the rim and finish. His 2pt% has dropped from pretty significantly since 13-14. He's still a solid player and he would definitely help us this year, but I wouldn't pay him 19 million next year. That money could be used much more effectively to find someone who will overlap more with the rest of our teams prime.

And there's been a love fest with dragic on this board for awhile. Maybe I exaggerated a bit, possibly because I just read an article by Dave King calling dragic his dream PG target. Still, I think quite a few on this board think he's better than he actually is.

His value is in making the team competitive by what he can bring talent wise and having played For Igor. His aging helps the team develop our youth as a veteran and not needing to play more than 30mpg after a year or 2. The Suns have sucked at developing youth for a long time. You need competitive veterans who facilitate the teams success to develop other players. It isn’t about just hiring shooting coaches and former big men assistant coaches.

I agree with that, but I don't think you have to pay Dragic's salary to get that kind of leadership.

mcdo is already willing to pay for ryno and arizas "leadership"

jonh wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:59 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:58 am

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:52 am

Sorry 'bone, no doom and gloom here. And no one is asking for pity. Just voicing legitimate concerns and simple analysis. Sorry it isn't a lovefest.

It is quite the opposite of a love fest which nobody asked for by the way. Doesn't sound very balanced. But please, continue...

Its hard to really judge McD on the trade in either direction until there is a signal about either a trade occuring or going into the season with the current roster.

With that said, it would not be the first time that the Suns went into a season under his watch where there appears to be an obvious problem with the roster construction, so it is hard for me to have a lot of faith in his ability to address the need with a fairly balanced trade. I am most worried about the team ending up on the bad end of a panic-trade, which has happened a few times in similar situations with him as the Suns GM.

That's very possible and frankly I wouldn't be surprised. Booker is in win now mode and the organization seems to by trying to be accommodating.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:56 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:58 am

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:52 am

Sorry 'bone, no doom and gloom here. And no one is asking for pity. Just voicing legitimate concerns and simple analysis. Sorry it isn't a lovefest.

It is quite the opposite of a love fest which nobody asked for by the way. Doesn't sound very balanced. But please, continue...

So what angle is being neglected? Balance out the discussion for us.

I try. Believe me. But I usually going flying off the other end of the seesaw. My neck hurts. I need to learn how to land better.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:00 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:59 am

https://twitter.com/esidery/status/1036296620315271168

I hope they work out a contract with him.

Me too. I think we're going to like the way he looks although I can't guarantee it.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:44 am

All of you guys are putting the cart before the horse. Let's see what we have. We have a new coach to put it all together. How about a little patience and cut down on all the doom and gloom before the team has even played a minute? Nah. Why change now? Back to your pity party...

This is a reasonable point; we should give each year's team a chance. But I don't like some major parts of this offseason. I wanted Doncic over Ayton, but I'm willing to wait and see on that one. I don't like either of the Houston-related moves; I don't see why we have sunk over $35m of our cap into two washed-up forwards from Houston, both of whom will get in the way of Bender's minutes, and neither of whom seems like a long-term fit for this team. I don't get at all what we're doing at PG. Are we going to just platoon young guys like Shaq, Okobo, and Melton? Are we going to play Booker at point? I don't like either of those options.

I will definitely give this team a chance and root for them to succeed. And I think we're likely significantly better than last year, which is great. But I just don't see the big picture or plan here. What kind of team is this? Why are we making the moves we are making? How do these players fit together? Who starts? What is the pecking order or rotation here?

Maybe there are 1-2 roster moves yet to come (preferably one for a veteran PG who can actually run our offense). If so, I may feel better. But I just don't get this roster right now.

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:21 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:44 am

All of you guys are putting the cart before the horse. Let's see what we have. We have a new coach to put it all together. How about a little patience and cut down on all the doom and gloom before the team has even played a minute? Nah. Why change now? Back to your pity party...

This is a reasonable point; we should give each year's team a chance. But I don't like some major parts of this offseason. I wanted Doncic over Ayton, but I'm willing to wait and see on that one. I don't like either of the Houston-related moves; I don't see why we have sunk over $35m of our cap into two washed-up forwards from Houston, both of whom will get in the way of Bender's minutes, and neither of whom seems like a long-term fit for this team. I don't get at all what we're doing at PG. Are we going to just platoon young guys like Shaq, Okobo, and Melton? Are we going to play Booker at point? I don't like either of those options.

I will definitely give this team a chance and root for them to succeed. And I think we're likely significantly better than last year, which is great. But I just don't see the big picture or plan here. What kind of team is this? Why are we making the moves we are making? How do these players fit together? Who starts? What is the pecking order or rotation here?

Maybe there are 1-2 roster moves yet to come (preferably one for a veteran PG who can actually run our offense). If so, I may feel better. But I just don't get this roster right now.

That all makes sense to me and is a balanced take. I feel like there will be a move for a veteran PG but I'm not sure how that will turn out. PG by committee, especially rookies and 2nd year players, doesn't make any sense to me. At least Canaan has some experience but how can we keep all of Canaan, Shaq, Okobo, and Melton? And what about all the other players currently on our roster. Guys like Holmes and Arthur? It will be curious to see if Bender gets any playing time this year and how they will handle him.

I really don't care if Bender gets minutes or not. He's been pretty much trash so far and shouldn't play unless he deserves the minutes.

I think McD's plan is pretty obvious. Surround the Booker-Ayton duo with versatile defenders and shooters. Ariza/Bridges do both. Anderson shoots, Melton defends. Jackson is a potential 3rd wheel as a playmaking forward who defends 1-4. Warren seems like a mismatched piece and the most likely to be used to trade for a PG. Okobo is a nice prospect, who could develop into a solid PG.

So if everything goes as planned, in the future you have your all star duo(Booker/Ayton) a 3rd semi-star(Jackson) a quality floor general(Okobo) and solid 3-D role players (Bridges, Bender, Melton) And that doesn't include any future picks or FA acquisitions.

Will it work? Who knows. We'll have to see how Ayton, Jackson, Okobo, etc develop. But the talent is there to surround two elite offensive weapons with lots of shooting and versatile defenders.

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:03 pm

Will it work? Who knows.

Apparently most of this board other than us.

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:03 pm

I really don't care if Bender gets minutes or not. He's been pretty much trash so far and shouldn't play unless he deserves the minutes.

I think McD's plan is pretty obvious. Surround the Booker-Ayton duo with versatile defenders and shooters. Ariza/Bridges do both. Anderson shoots, Melton defends. Jackson is a potential 3rd wheel as a playmaking forward who defends 1-4. Warren seems like a mismatched piece and the most likely to be used to trade for a PG. Okobo is a nice prospect, who could develop into a solid PG.

So if everything goes as planned, in the future you have your all star duo(Booker/Ayton) a 3rd semi-star(Jackson) a quality floor general(Okobo) and solid 3-D role players (Bridges, Bender, Melton) And that doesn't include any future picks or FA acquisitions.

Will it work? Who knows. We'll have to see how Ayton, Jackson, Okobo, etc develop. But the talent is there to surround two elite offensive weapons with lots of shooting and versatile defenders.

BTW, nice take.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:58 pm

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:56 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:58 am

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:52 am

Sorry 'bone, no doom and gloom here. And no one is asking for pity. Just voicing legitimate concerns and simple analysis. Sorry it isn't a lovefest.

It is quite the opposite of a love fest which nobody asked for by the way. Doesn't sound very balanced. But please, continue...

So what angle is being neglected? Balance out the discussion for us.

I try. Believe me. But I usually going flying off the other end of the seesaw. My neck hurts. I need to learn how to land better.

How many repeats of seeing McD assemble a bunch of guys at the same position and just hope it works until we are allowed to say "hmm, I don't think this guy has a plan" without it being "doom and gloom?" It would be careless to say, "I am sure it will work *this* time!"

Do I think we will be a better team this year than last?--Yes.
Do I think having a real coach will be good for our record?--Yes.
Do I think having a real coach will be good for our roster?--Yes.
Do I think we will no longer be in the bottom fifth of the league (like we have been for the entire decade)?--Maybe--might move from bottom 20% to bottom 33%.
Do I think we have anyone on our team that will be an all-star in the next 3-5 years besides Booker?--No.

I really hope someone else surprises me, because you aren't relevant in this league if you don't have 2-3 all-stars at the same time.

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:03 pm

I really don't care if Bender gets minutes or not. He's been pretty much trash so far and shouldn't play unless he deserves the minutes.

I think McD's plan is pretty obvious. Surround the Booker-Ayton duo with versatile defenders and shooters. Ariza/Bridges do both. Anderson shoots, Melton defends. Jackson is a potential 3rd wheel as a playmaking forward who defends 1-4. Warren seems like a mismatched piece and the most likely to be used to trade for a PG. Okobo is a nice prospect, who could develop into a solid PG.

So if everything goes as planned, in the future you have your all star duo(Booker/Ayton) a 3rd semi-star(Jackson) a quality floor general(Okobo) and solid 3-D role players (Bridges, Bender, Melton) And that doesn't include any future picks or FA acquisitions.

Will it work? Who knows. We'll have to see how Ayton, Jackson, Okobo, etc develop. But the talent is there to surround two elite offensive weapons with lots of shooting and versatile defenders.

I get what you are saying, and I don't disagree with some of the projections. But the only person on the current team outside of Booker that has shown legit skill in the NBA is Warren. The next closest is Ariza, and that has a lot to do with him playing on one of the top 3 teams in the league. As much as we need to figure out how to get better defensively and at shooting 3s, the primary goal is to put the ball through the hoop, and nobody on our team does that more efficiently than Warren (besides Booker).

I think Ayton can be an all-star. Bridges will be above average and Jackson can be a special 2-way player if he can play with pace. All-Stars? Probably not, but close. If Bridges can be like Shane Battier and Jackson can be a James Posey/Gerald Wallace type we'll be in good shape.

I'm also fine with defenders, dirtworkers and roleplayers around Booker and Ayton, so long as we embrace that identity and play that way on both sides of the ball. But we're not the Rockets or Warriors with this roster and shouldn't try to play like that. If Igor's SL coaching is any indication, we'll be more of a halfcourt team which I'm fine with given the roster.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:20 am

I think Ayton can be an all-star. Bridges will be above average and Jackson can be a special 2-way player if he can play with pace. All-Stars? Probably not, but close. If Bridges can be like Shane Battier and Jackson can be a James Posey/Gerald Wallace type we'll be in good shape.

I'm also fine with defenders, dirtworkers and roleplayers around Booker and Ayton, so long as we embrace that identity and play that way on both sides of the ball. But we're not the Rockets or Warriors with this roster and shouldn't try to play like that. If Igor's SL coaching is any indication, we'll be more of a halfcourt team which I'm fine with given the roster.

"Can be" and "will be" are not the same. Ayton hasn't played a single NBA game yet, so I can't say I think he will be an All-star. I hope he shows that from the first tip, but it is all conjecture right now. And even more conjecture with Bridges.

But yeah, I agree that if Mikal can turn into Shane Battier, and Jackson turns into a good NBA player instead of being one of the worst in the league last year, that would help.

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:13 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:03 pm

I really don't care if Bender gets minutes or not. He's been pretty much trash so far and shouldn't play unless he deserves the minutes.

I think McD's plan is pretty obvious. Surround the Booker-Ayton duo with versatile defenders and shooters. Ariza/Bridges do both. Anderson shoots, Melton defends. Jackson is a potential 3rd wheel as a playmaking forward who defends 1-4. Warren seems like a mismatched piece and the most likely to be used to trade for a PG. Okobo is a nice prospect, who could develop into a solid PG.

So if everything goes as planned, in the future you have your all star duo(Booker/Ayton) a 3rd semi-star(Jackson) a quality floor general(Okobo) and solid 3-D role players (Bridges, Bender, Melton) And that doesn't include any future picks or FA acquisitions.

Will it work? Who knows. We'll have to see how Ayton, Jackson, Okobo, etc develop. But the talent is there to surround two elite offensive weapons with lots of shooting and versatile defenders.

I get what you are saying, and I don't disagree with some of the projections. But the only person on the current team outside of Booker that has shown legit skill in the NBA is Warren. The next closest is Ariza, and that has a lot to do with him playing on one of the top 3 teams in the league. As much as we need to figure out how to get better defensively and at shooting 3s, the primary goal is to put the ball through the hoop, and nobody on our team does that more efficiently than Warren (besides Booker).

You're also not wrong. We're incredibly young (added 5 rookies this year) How these guys turn out is still a big question mark, I'm just saying I can see what McD is trying to build. Chances are a few people won't pan out, but we have enough talent, plus FA money, and future draft picks to keep supplementing that.

Booker - I think he's already a star, question is how big of a star he becomes.

Warren - You're right that he's the only other player where we know what he is. At the least he can score efficiently. Whether he develops his shot, playmaking, and defensive ability is the question about him.

Everyone else has lots of questions (I'm not including Ariza/Anderson because I don't see them as future pieces)

Ayton - I think he's at least a solid NBA starting 5. He'll rebound, score at the rim and be able to hit from mid range. Think Nik Vucevic. Ayton is a far superior physical/athletic specimen to Vucevic, so whether he uses that to become a major impact player on both ends of the court is the question.

Jackson - A lot rests on his shot. If he becomes respectable, his game will open up drastically. We only saw flashes of his playmaking ability last year. While he showed it in college, it's yet to be determined if it's an NBA skill. He'll defend and he can get to the rim. Can he shoot and create for others is the question.

Bender - Decent shooter, decent court awareness on offense and defense. Does he figure out how to actually use that on the court is the question.

Bridges - Can he do what he did in college in the NBA? Shooting 40%+ from 3 and defending at high level makes him an elite role player. He may just be a spot up shooter, but I think there is still some Klay potential in him as someone you can run off screens, etc. to get looks.

Okobo - In theory, a shot maker off the dribble with deep range who is developing as a playmaker and defends well. Do those skills translate to the NBA is the question.

Melton - Multiple people called him the best defensive guard prospect they've seen in a long time. Hard to see him fail defensively. Not sure he's more than a 3-D combo guard though, and that's if his shot develops.

Reed - Do the skills he showed in summer league(shooting and defense) translate to the NBA?

Shaq - Hard to see that there's a spot for him and Melton on the team in the future. Love Shaq defensively. Can he develop any other skills to where he's more than just a situational talent.

Eat a snickers bar, guys. It's OK to like the rookies and think that the team is moving in a positive direction. It's absolutely fair to project our young players based on what they have done previously in their careers.

Booker, Jackson, Ayton, Briges, Okobo, and Bender have all been getting better year by year. I expect them to continue improving and I expect all of them to be solid to great this year.

Warren, Harrison, Reed, Daniels are who they are and Igor should be able to figure out where they fit.

Ariza, Anderson, and Chandler know how to play but they are on the downside of their careers. I expect them to be a little worse than they were last year.

Holmes and Melton are question marks to me. I don't know much about them.

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:33 am

Eat a snickers bar, guys. It's OK to like the rookies and think that the team is moving in a positive direction. It's absolutely fair to project our young players based on what they have done previously in their careers.

Booker, Jackson, Ayton, Briges, Okobo, and Bender have all been getting better year by year. I expect them to continue improving and I expect all of them to be solid to great this year.

Warren, Harrison, Reed, Daniels are who they are and Igor should be able to figure out where they fit.

Ariza, Anderson, and Chandler know how to play but they are on the downside of their careers. I expect them to be a little worse than they were last year.

Holmes and Melton are question marks to me. I don't know much about them.

What have you seen from Jackson that shows he has been getting better every year? Same question with all of those guys, except Book.