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Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:48 pm
by Sunsfanatic76
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:05 pm
Sunsfanatic76 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:51 pm
Overall, I think this trade is a very poor value return for Ayton due to Nurkic's lack of lateral movement ability and overall really poor durability. Nurkic may (if lucky) play around half the season at best? Then not getting McConnell or Martin is a big value loss from ending up with little and Johnson. The contractual savings are a plus, and our depth is better defensively too. But neither wing offers legit size, although Allen will be an absolute pest defensively and will add an element of dirty thuggery to our team. Overall my biggest concern here is really Nurkic. I really hope that we can flip him for a better more mobile and athltic rim protecting center option.
Nurk is a smart basketball player, passes the ball well, can rebound, score in the paint in multiple ways, he made 36% from three, he plays strong. On defense he simply isn’t switchable.
Little plays big for his height. He will be in this league a long time and has potential to be a starting stretch 4 next year.
People are grieving the player they wanted Ayton to be.
For sure what you say is true about his intangibles (which I like)! however, my concern is still his legitimate durability concerns, as well as his lack of lateral mobility defensively. And that's making no mention of his age at 29 yrs old (with respect to further durability concerns and bodily breakdown with age increase. I mean how many bigs actually get more durable/ maintain health around age 30 and beyond?
And again, while though intangibles are great and add good value, they're completely irrelevant in games he won't be playing in. Availability matters. And if Nurkic predictably misses significant time, wich of our centers by commitee (decent but not starter material) will battle the Jokic's, Davis's, Jackson Jr and Adams, Kat and Gobert, Embiid or even the Vucevic's and the Valuncias's?? The west is loaded with dominant centers and frontcourts with size. We now currently have Portland's frontcourt from last season. And how well did that work out for them? Unless Nurkic's durability holds throughout most of the season, we're now legit thin in our frontcourt, and that's my biggest concern with this trade and its value to us overall.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:49 pm
by Drewsprocket
JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:21 pm
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:05 pm
Sunsfanatic76 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:51 pm
Overall, I think this trade is a very poor value return for Ayton due to Nurkic's lack of lateral movement ability and overall really poor durability. Nurkic may (if lucky) play around half the season at best? Then not getting McConnell or Martin is a big value loss from ending up with little and Johnson. The contractual savings are a plus, and our depth is better defensively too. But neither wing offers legit size, although Allen will be an absolute pest defensively and will add an element of dirty thuggery to our team. Overall my biggest concern here is really Nurkic. I really hope that we can flip him for a better more mobile and athltic rim protecting center option.
Nurk is a smart basketball player, passes the ball well, can rebound, score in the paint in multiple ways, he made 36% from three, he plays strong. On defense he simply isn’t switchable.
Little plays big for his height. He will be in this league a long time and has potential to be a starting stretch 4 next year.
No thanks. Don’t want a 6’5” PF unless it’s Charles Barkley, lol.
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:05 pm
People are grieving the player they wanted Ayton to be.
And what are you going to say when he is that player in Portland?
I accept that the Ayton who played for the Suns was mostly this guy. I hope he plays better with his new found freedom of less expectations and pressure to win.
https://x.com/themattpetersen/status/17 ... 02633?s=46
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:52 pm
by Drewsprocket
Sunsfanatic76 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:48 pm
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:05 pm
Sunsfanatic76 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:51 pm
Overall, I think this trade is a very poor value return for Ayton due to Nurkic's lack of lateral movement ability and overall really poor durability. Nurkic may (if lucky) play around half the season at best? Then not getting McConnell or Martin is a big value loss from ending up with little and Johnson. The contractual savings are a plus, and our depth is better defensively too. But neither wing offers legit size, although Allen will be an absolute pest defensively and will add an element of dirty thuggery to our team. Overall my biggest concern here is really Nurkic. I really hope that we can flip him for a better more mobile and athltic rim protecting center option.
Nurk is a smart basketball player, passes the ball well, can rebound, score in the paint in multiple ways, he made 36% from three, he plays strong. On defense he simply isn’t switchable.
Little plays big for his height. He will be in this league a long time and has potential to be a starting stretch 4 next year.
People are grieving the player they wanted Ayton to be.
For sure what you say is true about his intangibles (which I like)! however, my concern is still his legitimate durability concerns, as well as his lack of lateral mobility defensively. And that's making no mention of his age at 29 yrs old (with respect to further durability concerns and bodily breakdown with age increase. I mean how many bigs actually get more durable/ maintain health around age 30 and beyond?
And again, while though intangibles are great and add good value, they're completely irrelevant in games he won't be playing in. Availability matters. And if Nurkic predictably misses significant time, wich of our centers by commitee (decent but not starter material) will battle the Jokic's, Davis's, Jackson Jr and Adams, Kat and Gobert, Embiid or even the Vucevic's and the Valuncias's?? The west is loaded with dominant centers and frontcourts with size. We now currently have Portland's frontcourt from last season. And how well did that work out for them? Unless Nurkic's durability holds throughout most of the season, we're now legit thin in our frontcourt, and that's my biggest concern with this trade and its value to us overall.
I share your concerns as well. I think Suns success relies more on how KD’s health is than out of the 5 slot. Eubanks can start for us too. Let’s not forget that Nurk played less also because it was tank time.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:52 pm
by 3TheHardaway
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:49 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:21 pm
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:05 pm
Sunsfanatic76 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:51 pm
Overall, I think this trade is a very poor value return for Ayton due to Nurkic's lack of lateral movement ability and overall really poor durability. Nurkic may (if lucky) play around half the season at best? Then not getting McConnell or Martin is a big value loss from ending up with little and Johnson. The contractual savings are a plus, and our depth is better defensively too. But neither wing offers legit size, although Allen will be an absolute pest defensively and will add an element of dirty thuggery to our team. Overall my biggest concern here is really Nurkic. I really hope that we can flip him for a better more mobile and athltic rim protecting center option.
Nurk is a smart basketball player, passes the ball well, can rebound, score in the paint in multiple ways, he made 36% from three, he plays strong. On defense he simply isn’t switchable.
Little plays big for his height. He will be in this league a long time and has potential to be a starting stretch 4 next year.
No thanks. Don’t want a 6’5” PF unless it’s Charles Barkley, lol.
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:05 pm
People are grieving the player they wanted Ayton to be.
And what are you going to say when he is that player in Portland?
I accept that the Ayton who played for the Suns was mostly this guy. I hope he plays better with his new found freedom of less expectations and pressure to win.
https://x.com/themattpetersen/status/17 ... 02633?s=46
The bench reactions to that are all time. Ish with the hands on hips, Bizzy facepalming. Sums it up pretty well.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:53 pm
by TOO
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:47 pm
TOO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:43 pm
Lots of smart guys aren't so against the trade.
Yea... I don't like what we got, but I understand. They've been shopping him for 2 years and knew it was destined to happen. Just wished for more; especially after his amazing performance playing for Bahamas (sic). His "amazing" performance didn't even move the needle remotely in getting us a better return.
I'll always wonder what happened in the Sabonis deal.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:53 pm
by Kryptonic
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:49 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:21 pm
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:05 pm
Sunsfanatic76 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:51 pm
Overall, I think this trade is a very poor value return for Ayton due to Nurkic's lack of lateral movement ability and overall really poor durability. Nurkic may (if lucky) play around half the season at best? Then not getting McConnell or Martin is a big value loss from ending up with little and Johnson. The contractual savings are a plus, and our depth is better defensively too. But neither wing offers legit size, although Allen will be an absolute pest defensively and will add an element of dirty thuggery to our team. Overall my biggest concern here is really Nurkic. I really hope that we can flip him for a better more mobile and athltic rim protecting center option.
Nurk is a smart basketball player, passes the ball well, can rebound, score in the paint in multiple ways, he made 36% from three, he plays strong. On defense he simply isn’t switchable.
Little plays big for his height. He will be in this league a long time and has potential to be a starting stretch 4 next year.
No thanks. Don’t want a 6’5” PF unless it’s Charles Barkley, lol.
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:05 pm
People are grieving the player they wanted Ayton to be.
And what are you going to say when he is that player in Portland?
I accept that the Ayton who played for the Suns was mostly this guy. I hope he plays better with his new found freedom of less expectations and pressure to win.
https://x.com/themattpetersen/status/17 ... 02633?s=46
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:53 pm
by Split T
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:49 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:21 pm
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:05 pm
Sunsfanatic76 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:51 pm
Overall, I think this trade is a very poor value return for Ayton due to Nurkic's lack of lateral movement ability and overall really poor durability. Nurkic may (if lucky) play around half the season at best? Then not getting McConnell or Martin is a big value loss from ending up with little and Johnson. The contractual savings are a plus, and our depth is better defensively too. But neither wing offers legit size, although Allen will be an absolute pest defensively and will add an element of dirty thuggery to our team. Overall my biggest concern here is really Nurkic. I really hope that we can flip him for a better more mobile and athltic rim protecting center option.
Nurk is a smart basketball player, passes the ball well, can rebound, score in the paint in multiple ways, he made 36% from three, he plays strong. On defense he simply isn’t switchable.
Little plays big for his height. He will be in this league a long time and has potential to be a starting stretch 4 next year.
No thanks. Don’t want a 6’5” PF unless it’s Charles Barkley, lol.
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:05 pm
People are grieving the player they wanted Ayton to be.
And what are you going to say when he is that player in Portland?
I accept that the Ayton who played for the Suns was mostly this guy. I hope he plays better with his new found freedom of less expectations and pressure to win.
https://x.com/themattpetersen/status/17 ... 02633?s=46
Two ugly plays, but the bigger problem is him getting beat down the court by Jokic
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:54 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
No only does he blow the easy two points but he jogs in transition and allows Jokic to run from behind him and score a layup. Pathetic effort and awareness.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:54 pm
by TOO
He sucks.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:59 pm
by Superbone
3TheHardaway wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:44 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they're still working to move Jrue elsewhere, this trade won't be finalized?
I think I'll be surprised if all 4 players land in Phoenix once finalized.
I think in terms of talent Nurkic is a significant downgrade, however, I don't think I realized how reliable he was from 3, and how well he can operate from the high post in terms of finding cutters or guys coming off screens. If you watch any film of him, you'll also notice that he doesn't duck contact unlike DA (I scolded by the wife too many times yelling "YOURE THE BIGGEST DUDE ON THE FLOOR, STOP FADING AWAY YOU MONUMENTAL P****).
His matchup against Jokic from December last season provides some optimism; he bodied Jokic and Gordon, finished through contact, and his ability to space the floor on pick-pop causes Jokic to have to run a bit more on defense than he would like.
Nurkic alone will change the dynamic going against Denver, and if guys are healthy, that's really the hardest match-up I can see out west. I don't buy the Lakers adding Gabe and Prince as being needle moving. Clippers haven't done much, Warriors will be worse. Kings will be interesting, but you don't exactly need dominant post play to frustrate Sabonis.
Milwaukee is scary as hell on paper now. We have nothing to throw in Giannis's way like Miami, Boston can.
Can't wait to actually start the season.
I appreciate the reminder. No more forehead vein popping
"DUNK THE BALL!!!" from me.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:01 pm
by Shabazz
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:44 pm
Because they know who Deandre Ayton is as an NBA player.
It's about the return for me, not about Ayton. I had no qualms with moving on from Ayton.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:01 pm
by 3TheHardaway
Gambo seems to believe that Allen and Little will be held onto:
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:07 pm
by Sunsfan4life
I'm not thrilled with the return but what's with all the Grayson Allen hate? Yes he's annoying but he's a pretty decent piece for a contending team. Waving him would be dumb. Basically suns broke Ayton's contract up to more movable parts down the line. Wish it was a better return but Allen is prob the best part of the deal for Phoenix
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:10 pm
by JeremyG
Regardless of whether one thinks DA was legit injured or not, Game 6 totally disproves the “addition by subtraction” theory that is now floating around in Suns circles.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:11 pm
by Split T
Allen is good…he’s just a punk and quite dirty…though most of the dirty stuff is in the past
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:13 pm
by TOO
Split T wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:11 pm
Allen is good…he’s just a punk and quite dirty…though most of the dirty stuff is in the past
This. Allen is going to endear himself to the fans pretty quickly, definitely one of those antics guys you like when they play for you.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:15 pm
by TOO
3TheHardaway wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:01 pm
Gambo seems to believe that Allen and Little will be held onto:
Excellent. Grayson Allen is good, he might even better than Gordon. Yeah I said it.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:18 pm
by specialsauce
JeremyG wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:29 pm
Shabazz wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:22 pm
Ayton sitting in game 6 was the equivalent of Kelly sitting out the bubble.
This is insane. Kelly was medically cleared to play. Ayton had trouble breathing from bruised ribs, which are no joke.
This is misinformed. There is no harm in playing with “bruised” ribs. It’s purely pain tolerance.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:18 pm
by Split T
We’ll see on Grayson. He can shoot. I think he’s in actuality what we hoped Shamet was.
Re: TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:19 pm
by specialsauce
Wow. Crazy trade. Don’t love the return, felt he was more valuable than that but shows you what his team and the rest of the league thought of him. I do think nurkic is a better fit.
So glad I never have to cheer for DA again