Phx-Suns.Net

TOO wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 4:17 pm

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 3:47 pm

I’ve only seen his responses and not the whole presser but Ishbia doesn’t seem to understand that it’s not that we’re disappointed that the Suns didn’t win a title, it’s how we didn’t win the title.

This team was listless, disjointed, inconsistent, showed no grit, had bad vibes, played an outdated offensive style and addressed none of their game 2 issues by game 82. And then they went out with an appropriate whimper.

This isn’t the scenario where a group of warriors just came up short and their close loss will be the fuel that galvanizes them and finally brings home a title. This is the “insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results” scenario.

Prepare to go insane.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 10:15 pm

Yeah, defense and rebounding were clearly the Suns biggest issues to me.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 10:33 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 10:15 pm

Yeah, defense and rebounding were clearly the Suns biggest issues to me.

Yup. 100%

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 11:04 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 10:33 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 10:15 pm

Yeah, defense and rebounding were clearly the Suns biggest issues to me.

Yup. 100%

Not to be a contrarian but do you both mean their consistent offense meltdowns didn’t stand out as a bigger issue than D and rebounding? They were 13th in the league on D. They performed better on D than I expected. That they kept turning over the ball made their defense worse.

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 10:24 pm

I think that talk about "We didn't use KD correctly" was more directed at KD himself. The FO is trying to signal to KD that we'll try to use him better next year so he doesn't stay mad. He's likely been leaking some of these negative stories to the media this week and they don't want him to get upset and stay mad all summer.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 10:09 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 7:46 am

I just don’t share the same defensive concerns as you. We were 13th in defense this year. The defense wasn’t the problem against Minny…the offense sucked and when we started to slip we let go of the rope and let Minny go crazy.

LeBron plays defense in the playoffs. The Lakers held the nuggets to well below their regular season offensive efficiency. I can’t believe I’m having to argue why LeBron James at the vet min would be good for this team.

The defense wasn't a problem against Minny?! Are you freakin' kidding me?! They scored every time down the court.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2024 4:18 am

Wrote a lot of stuff, just braindumping so putting a spoiler on it but TL;DR- Vogel should be fired but might not be; the roster probably stays the same; we should've played better and I think a large part of that was due to coaching; we gotta get back to rebuilding thru the draft.

Spoiler: show/hide

On coaching - I just can’t see how Vogel can be kept. He’s not the guy. Maybe that’s too harsh on him because there are other issues with this team for sure but he never clicked with the lockeroom and it was obvious all year long. Nothing we did on the court looked good or looked like sustainable winning basketball. I don’t care what the numbers said about our offense or defense, everything was a struggle even when we were winning games. Every single thing we were bad at in November, we were bad at in April. So for me there’s no scenario where everyone’s brought back to try it again next year. And it’s typically easier to get rid of one coach than replace high priced players.

That leaves us in a tough spot obviously. It’s not a good idea to fire the head coach without your ideal choice lined up to replace him, so this could drag out. And if a guy like Lue doesn’t become available, then what? Are we looking for a mercenary coach to lead a team of mercenaries? Can chemistry be reset with new offensive and defensive approaches? I guess that’s something only the players know. Do we trust another retread veteran like Budenholzer or Stotts? Or hire a younger or first-time head coach for a veteran group with title hopes? There may not be any good answers.

For me, a bad case scenario would be having no other realistic options and trying to reset with him and the core for next season. Can't see that working out.

But who else can take over?

I’d lean hard into what Book said about details and prep. That’s the kind of coach and identity we need to be seeking out. He could be talking about players too (KD? Beal?), but there’s only so much to be done there. The last 3 years weren’t a fluke, Book’s that good and we shouldn’t be mad at him for what he wants and expects.

Roster - I don’t see any major trades happening. If we nail the right coach, we could extend the window to maybe 2 more seasons where we’re competitive but probably not really contenders. A lot would obviously depend on health and moves on the margins. Generally tho, I think this roster is capable of a lot more simply in terms of effort and smart, consistent play.

With the current core we know we’re older, slower, less athletic, generally smaller than the contenders. Do we lean into the offense and live with the defense so long as it’s on point? What coach can bring that out? Can we fix all of the roster problem this upcoming offseason? Do we focus on a bigger 3/4 ? A starting level PG? We know we’ll need a backup center, too.

Bigger questions: Can Book, KD and Beal all successfully exist together on the same team? If Book and KD aren’t aligned on how to win or what it takes to win, then that needs to be figured out. If Book and Beal can’t work together in the backcourt, then that needs to be figured out. It doesn’t seem like any of them hate the other, which I guess is a good thing. But I think anyone sensed a ton of chemistry between the 3 during the year.

I'm sure we'll get into the weeds with free agency and the draft but overall I'd love to see Jones be able to work the draft and somehow get 2 playable young guys to come in and rejuvenate things. We need some competitiveness, some fire, some hustle, some likable homegrown players with winning backgrounds. And we need them cheap.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 11:41 pm

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 11:04 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 10:33 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2024 10:15 pm

Yeah, defense and rebounding were clearly the Suns biggest issues to me.

Yup. 100%

Not to be a contrarian but do you both mean their consistent offense meltdowns didn’t stand out as a bigger issue than D and rebounding? They were 13th in the league on D. They performed better on D than I expected. That they kept turning over the ball made their defense worse.

We are talking specifically about the Suns/Wolves playoff series. 16 teams make the playoffs so 13th isn't so hot (not to mention that it is a regular season stat) and they couldn't stop the Wolves to save their lives. On the rare occasions they did stop them, the Wolves would get an offensive rebound, or two, and score anyway. So, those two things stood out as our biggest two issues. We scored at a decent clip in spite of the Wolves excellent defense.

Split T wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2024 8:12 am

ShelC wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2024 4:18 am

Wrote a lot of stuff, just braindumping so putting a spoiler on it but TL;DR- Vogel should be fired but might not be; the roster probably stays the same; we should've played better and I think a large part of that was due to coaching; we gotta get back to rebuilding thru the draft.

Spoiler: show/hide

On coaching - I just can’t see how Vogel can be kept. He’s not the guy. Maybe that’s too harsh on him because there are other issues with this team for sure but he never clicked with the lockeroom and it was obvious all year long. Nothing we did on the court looked good or looked like sustainable winning basketball. I don’t care what the numbers said about our offense or defense, everything was a struggle even when we were winning games. Every single thing we were bad at in November, we were bad at in April. So for me there’s no scenario where everyone’s brought back to try it again next year. And it’s typically easier to get rid of one coach than replace high priced players.

That leaves us in a tough spot obviously. It’s not a good idea to fire the head coach without your ideal choice lined up to replace him, so this could drag out. And if a guy like Lue doesn’t become available, then what? Are we looking for a mercenary coach to lead a team of mercenaries? Can chemistry be reset with new offensive and defensive approaches? I guess that’s something only the players know. Do we trust another retread veteran like Budenholzer or Stotts? Or hire a younger or first-time head coach for a veteran group with title hopes? There may not be any good answers.

For me, a bad case scenario would be having no other realistic options and trying to reset with him and the core for next season. Can't see that working out.

But who else can take over?

I’d lean hard into what Book said about details and prep. That’s the kind of coach and identity we need to be seeking out. He could be talking about players too (KD? Beal?), but there’s only so much to be done there. The last 3 years weren’t a fluke, Book’s that good and we shouldn’t be mad at him for what he wants and expects.

Roster - I don’t see any major trades happening. If we nail the right coach, we could extend the window to maybe 2 more seasons where we’re competitive but probably not really contenders. A lot would obviously depend on health and moves on the margins. Generally tho, I think this roster is capable of a lot more simply in terms of effort and smart, consistent play.

With the current core we know we’re older, slower, less athletic, generally smaller than the contenders. Do we lean into the offense and live with the defense so long as it’s on point? What coach can bring that out? Can we fix all of the roster problem this upcoming offseason? Do we focus on a bigger 3/4 ? A starting level PG? We know we’ll need a backup center, too.

Bigger questions: Can Book, KD and Beal all successfully exist together on the same team? If Book and KD aren’t aligned on how to win or what it takes to win, then that needs to be figured out. If Book and Beal can’t work together in the backcourt, then that needs to be figured out. It doesn’t seem like any of them hate the other, which I guess is a good thing. But I think anyone sensed a ton of chemistry between the 3 during the year.

I'm sure we'll get into the weeds with free agency and the draft but overall I'd love to see Jones be able to work the draft and somehow get 2 playable young guys to come in and rejuvenate things. We need some competitiveness, some fire, some hustle, some likable homegrown players with winning backgrounds. And we need them cheap.

I wouldn’t get your hopes up on the draft stuff. JJ doesn’t really believe in the draft and it seems Ishbia lines up in those beliefs. We’ll be trading our pick probably every year.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2024 8:33 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2024 8:12 am

ShelC wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2024 4:18 am

Wrote a lot of stuff, just braindumping so putting a spoiler on it but TL;DR- Vogel should be fired but might not be; the roster probably stays the same; we should've played better and I think a large part of that was due to coaching; we gotta get back to rebuilding thru the draft.

Spoiler: show/hide

On coaching - I just can’t see how Vogel can be kept. He’s not the guy. Maybe that’s too harsh on him because there are other issues with this team for sure but he never clicked with the lockeroom and it was obvious all year long. Nothing we did on the court looked good or looked like sustainable winning basketball. I don’t care what the numbers said about our offense or defense, everything was a struggle even when we were winning games. Every single thing we were bad at in November, we were bad at in April. So for me there’s no scenario where everyone’s brought back to try it again next year. And it’s typically easier to get rid of one coach than replace high priced players.

That leaves us in a tough spot obviously. It’s not a good idea to fire the head coach without your ideal choice lined up to replace him, so this could drag out. And if a guy like Lue doesn’t become available, then what? Are we looking for a mercenary coach to lead a team of mercenaries? Can chemistry be reset with new offensive and defensive approaches? I guess that’s something only the players know. Do we trust another retread veteran like Budenholzer or Stotts? Or hire a younger or first-time head coach for a veteran group with title hopes? There may not be any good answers.

For me, a bad case scenario would be having no other realistic options and trying to reset with him and the core for next season. Can't see that working out.

But who else can take over?

I’d lean hard into what Book said about details and prep. That’s the kind of coach and identity we need to be seeking out. He could be talking about players too (KD? Beal?), but there’s only so much to be done there. The last 3 years weren’t a fluke, Book’s that good and we shouldn’t be mad at him for what he wants and expects.

Roster - I don’t see any major trades happening. If we nail the right coach, we could extend the window to maybe 2 more seasons where we’re competitive but probably not really contenders. A lot would obviously depend on health and moves on the margins. Generally tho, I think this roster is capable of a lot more simply in terms of effort and smart, consistent play.

With the current core we know we’re older, slower, less athletic, generally smaller than the contenders. Do we lean into the offense and live with the defense so long as it’s on point? What coach can bring that out? Can we fix all of the roster problem this upcoming offseason? Do we focus on a bigger 3/4 ? A starting level PG? We know we’ll need a backup center, too.

Bigger questions: Can Book, KD and Beal all successfully exist together on the same team? If Book and KD aren’t aligned on how to win or what it takes to win, then that needs to be figured out. If Book and Beal can’t work together in the backcourt, then that needs to be figured out. It doesn’t seem like any of them hate the other, which I guess is a good thing. But I think anyone sensed a ton of chemistry between the 3 during the year.

I'm sure we'll get into the weeds with free agency and the draft but overall I'd love to see Jones be able to work the draft and somehow get 2 playable young guys to come in and rejuvenate things. We need some competitiveness, some fire, some hustle, some likable homegrown players with winning backgrounds. And we need them cheap.

I wouldn’t get your hopes up on the draft stuff. JJ doesn’t really believe in the draft and it seems Ishbia lines up in those beliefs. We’ll be trading our pick probably every year.

I don't know about that. I think we fully intended to keep Camara this season. (But I don't claim to have a photographic memory.)