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Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:52 pm
by In2ition
I do agree with you as it's not going to make a huge difference this year, but it will help in FA next season, other than if Bledsoe would have helped acquire Cousins. If the Suns would have gotten Griffin, they probably would include Jackson in the trade, I'm guessing. Getting Kyrie now though, is a bit of a coup if they don't have to give up any significant assets.
I am with you in that facilitating a trade that brings good assets back might be better, but I'm not going to scoff at Kyrie if the trade becomes a great value deal for the Suns and helps them significantly in the future without disrupting #TheTimeline
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:23 pm
by AbeVroman
Just over 25 years ago the Suns made a trade that altered the course of the franchise. I would imagine there were many people who were afraid to make that deal at the time - we were trading for a 29 year old, polarizing NBA all star. He was undersized and didn't play much defense. There were questions about his work habits and off court activities. All he did was go on to win the MVP award and take us within 1 game of the championship.
Is this the same? No. Are there similarities? Yes.
I'm on board with trading JJ if need be. If we can keep him that'd be amazing.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:17 pm
by Cap
AbeVroman wrote:Just over 25 years ago the Suns made a trade that altered the course of the franchise. I would imagine there were many people who were afraid to make that deal at the time - we were trading for a 29 year old, polarizing NBA all star. He was undersized and didn't play much defense. There were questions about his work habits and off court activities. All he did was go on to win the MVP award and take us within 1 game of the championship.
Is this the same? No. Are there similarities? Yes.
I'm on board with trading JJ if need be. If we can keep him that'd be amazing.
Similarities? Not really.
Barkley was one of the most dominant players in the game. He was putting up MVP numbers in Philly and was out of the conversation only because the team sucked. After the trade he was a consensus prediction for MVP, and this was with Jordan in His prime. Kyrie is nowhere near this dominant.
Barkley joined a team that was already one of the top teams in the league and contending for titles without him. Kyrie would be joining the second-worst team in the league.
Andrew Lang and Tim Perry were journeymen who never amounted to much. Jeff Hornacek was a legitimate All-Star for us, but replacing him in free agency with Danny Ainge wasn't a huge step down. And Oliver Miller was a superior replacement for Lang. So ultimately we gave up very little for Barkley. We would be sacrificing a lot more to bring in Kyrie.
So in '92 we started with a great team, turned Hornacek and Lang into Ainge and Miller, and made this upgrade:
Code: Select all
Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Perry 1991-92 26 80 69 2483 413 789 .523 3 8 .375 410 781 .525 .525 153 215 .712 204 347 551 134 44 116 141 237 982
Barkley* 1991-92 28 75 75 2881 622 1126 .552 32 137 .234 590 989 .597 .567 454 653 .695 271 559 830 308 136 44 235 196 1730
Player Season Age G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
Perry 1991-92 26 80 2483 13.8 .556 .010 .272 9.5 14.7 12.2 7.4 0.9 2.7 13.8 17.2 2.7 3.0 5.7 .110 -0.2 1.3 1.1 2.0
Barkley* 1991-92 28 75 2881 24.5 .612 .122 .580 10.9 22.0 16.5 18.1 2.4 0.9 14.3 25.1 8.6 3.7 12.3 .205 5.9 1.5 7.4 6.9
In '17 we're proposing to start with a terrible team, turn JJ and a lottery pick into nothing, and make this upgrade:
Code: Select all
Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Bledsoe 2016-17 27 66 66 2176 7.4 17.1 .434 1.7 5.1 .335 5.7 12.0 .477 6.4 7.6 .847 0.9 4.4 5.3 6.9 1.5 0.5 3.7 2.7 23.0
e Irving 2016-17 24 72 72 2525 9.6 20.2 .473 2.5 6.3 .401 7.0 14.0 .505 4.2 4.7 .905 0.7 2.5 3.3 6.0 1.2 0.3 2.6 2.2 25.9
Player Season Age G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
Bledsoe 2016-17 27 66 2176 20.5 .563 .300 .443 2.5 13.8 8.0 31.1 2.0 1.2 15.3 28.1 4.0 1.4 5.3 .118 3.7 -0.4 3.3 2.9
e Irving 2016-17 24 72 2525 23.0 .580 .311 .231 2.3 7.5 5.0 29.7 1.6 0.8 10.3 30.8 7.4 1.5 8.9 .170 4.8 -2.3 2.5 2.9
So, not similar at all.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:27 am
by The Bobster
Granted, Irving is a better player than Bledsoe, but it's not by nearly as much as a lot of people seem to think. Certainly not enough better to throw in Josh Jackson and a lottery pick.
I might be willing to give up Bledsoe, Warren and a non-lottery #1, but I think that's probably still to much since you're only guaranteed two years of Irving.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:36 am
by O_Gardino
The Bobster wrote:Granted, Irving is a better player than Bledsoe, but it's not by nearly as much as a lot of people seem to think. Certainly not enough better to throw in Josh Jackson and a lottery pick.
I might be willing to give up Bledsoe, Warren and a non-lottery #1, but I think that's probably still to much since you're only guaranteed two years of Irving.
That's pretty much where I am. That or swap Chriss in there for Warren or the pick.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:54 am
by Wormwood
Cap is correct. Totally different situations.
Also, if we did trade Bled, JJ, and a 1st for Irving and Channing Frye, I believe we would compete for an 8th seed in the playoffs. Irving/Ullis, Booker, Dudley/Warren, Frye, and Chandler/Williams is actually a really solid rotation of above average to all-star players.
Not that I think that's our best long term plan, probably, but it's one that is more likely to keep Irving from leaving a bad team. Frye opens up so much space, and is a decent enough defender, that he'd be a net plus. SHumpert is crap, and just adds to the log jam at SF.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:16 am
by ShelC
I think Kyrie is that much better than Bledsoe but I'm also not giving up Jackson. And a lot can happen in 2 years and if you have have a "core" of Irving and Booker, other players will take notice and a 3rd superstar may look at us and want to join. But really, Bledsoe is up in 2 years also and as of right now, I wouldn't want him re-signed. So I'd take my chances with Kyrie and if he walks, he walks or he tells us he's walking and we flip him.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:50 am
by Mori Chu
The Bobster wrote:Granted, Irving is a better player than Bledsoe, but it's not by nearly as much as a lot of people seem to think. Certainly not enough better to throw in Josh Jackson and a lottery pick.
You are assuming that Bledsoe remains healthy and maintains his current level of production. I think it's much more likely that he will suffer a big injury and that his level of play will drop substantially from what it was last season. The time to sell high on Bledsoe before he blows out is now.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:11 pm
by Wally_West
Completely agree on Bledsoe's knee. They're a ticking time bomb and he needs to traded before they go. I'm still not cool with trading Josh "motherfucker" Jackson for Kyrie.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:13 pm
by Mori Chu
You guys must have seen something in those 3-4 summer league games that I didn't see.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:17 pm
by Split T
Bledsoe/Warren or Chriss/ Miami pick for Kyrie/Frye. I'd probably send our 1st next year if they were adamant about it, but I'd protect it to top 5 at least. I'd take shumpert instead of Frye if it meant we don't have to move our own pick.
Kyrie is significantly better than Bledsoe. You can't just look at pts/reb/ast, which Kyrie beats Bledsoe at anyways. The divide is definitely big enough that we'd need to include something like Warren/1st
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:18 pm
by Split T
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:You guys must have seen something in those 3-4 summer league games that I didn't see.
What did you see?
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:29 pm
by O_Gardino
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:You guys must have seen something in those 3-4 summer league games that I didn't see.
I'll pm you my special summer league moonshine recipe. really opens your eyes to the game, man
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:32 pm
by Wally_West
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:You guys must have seen something in those 3-4 summer league games that I didn't see.
Are you really gonna decide how good someone's career is going to be based on 3-4 summer league games?
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:27 pm
by Shabazz
Offensively, having someone who can shoot from deep like Kyrie can at the PG position is such a key. It allows you to play Jackson or Warren without having to worry as much about spacing that you should be getting from the 1 spot. I think to have a functional NBA offense these days, you need at least three reliable 3-point shooters on the floor at once. With all of our non-shooters at the 3/4/5 spots, playing Bledsoe always came with a hidden cost.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:52 pm
by Mori Chu
Split T wrote:Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:You guys must have seen something in those 3-4 summer league games that I didn't see.
What did you see?
I saw a solid rookie prospect who seems to be a good defender, who handles the ball pretty well for an SF, and runs/plays hard. I liked what I saw, but I also wasn't so blown away as to think, "This player is untouchable, even if we could acquire an All-NBA level player in return."
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:54 pm
by Mori Chu
Wally_West wrote:Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:You guys must have seen something in those 3-4 summer league games that I didn't see.
Are you really gonna decide how good someone's career is going to be based on 3-4 summer league games?
Are you really gonna pass on an All-NBA player based on 3-4 summer league games?
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:08 pm
by O_Gardino
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Split T wrote:Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:You guys must have seen something in those 3-4 summer league games that I didn't see.
What did you see?
I saw a solid rookie prospect who seems to be a good defender, who handles the ball pretty well for an SF, and runs/plays hard. I liked what I saw, but I also wasn't so blown away as to think, "This player is untouchable, even if we could acquire an All-NBA level player in return."
I pretty much agree on Jackson, but I don't see Kyrie making all-nba again. If he gets on a good team and keeps having big games in the playoffs, he will be a lock for the HOF. But if he's on a bad team in the west, I'm not convinced he makes the allstar game.
It's not about thinking that Kyrie isn't better than Jackson right now. It's about thinking that the Suns minus Jackson + Irving aren't going to be a winning team, so that's too much to give up. Especially with the draft pick thrown in.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:15 pm
by The Bobster
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Are you really gonna pass on an All-NBA player based on 3-4 summer league games?
Irving has the same All-NBA credentials that Goran Dragic does - one 3rd Team All-NBA. He is a perennial All-Star (4 of the last 5 years), but he's not on the same level as Curry, Harden, Westbrook or Paul - he's a notch down from that. He's more Klay Thompson, Damian Lillard or Isaiah Thomas which is really good, but he's not among the best of the best.
And no, based on his college career and scouting reports I don't include Josh Jackson, who is on a rookie scale contract and under team control for five years for Kyrie Irving who is going to ask for $35-$40 million a year when he starts talking new contract in the next year or two.
Re: Kyrie Irving Trade Countdown
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:25 pm
by In2ition
The Bobster wrote:Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Are you really gonna pass on an All-NBA player based on 3-4 summer league games?
Irving has the same All-NBA credentials that Goran Dragic does - one 3rd Team All-NBA. He is a perennial All-Star (4 of the last 5 years), but he's not on the same level as Curry, Harden, Westbrook or Paul - he's a notch down from that. He's more Klay Thompson, Damian Lillard or Isaiah Thomas which is really good, but he's not among the best of the best.
And no, based on his college career and scouting reports I don't include Josh Jackson, who is on a rookie scale contract and under team control for five years for Kyrie Irving who is going to ask for $35-$40 million a year when he starts talking new contract in the next year or two.
If you want to win a championship, eventually you're going to have to pay over the cap for your players and into the luxury tax to continue competing, unless you believe in the Oakland A's methodology. You don't want to continue making the mistakes that the Suns and OKC did, trading away assets because they felt they were too expensive, therefore ejecting yourself out of contention. I'm not advocating for including Jackson in the trade though.
I think you work with the best of all 3 methodologies of building this team into a contender. If you can get Kyrie on the relative cheap and without giving up any relevant assets towards #TheTimeline, you absolutely do it. Then one more year of building through the draft. Next summer go after another asset through Free Agency and use more assets in a trade or trades to complete the process. At least that would be the path I would follow to continue #TheTimeline and accelerate it.