Phx-Suns.Net

Split T wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 11:19 am

I will say Ayton’s deal is looking less problematic after the deals given out this weekend. Poeltl and López both got 20 million+

Isn't this crazy???

The cap goes up every year, so this was always going to be the perception as long as he's not out with a major injury.

He's still overpaid by about $10M/year.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 4:28 pm

As Bob said, health is always the X-factor. To that point, at least we no longer have to worry about leaning into Chris Paul ball only for him to eventually miss games in the Playoffs. I hope Kevin Young has something cooked up to balance the offensive workload.

I do think we can now survive an injury to one of the Big 3.5 with Gordon in the mix.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 5:57 pm

The cap goes up every year, so this was always going to be the perception as long as he's not out with a major injury.

He's still overpaid by about $10M/year.

Agree

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 3:49 pm

IF Ayton buys in to Vogel and understands what a great situation he is in, he could have a career year. A lot of ifs but I'm feeling pretty good about this upcoming season based on what I know about the FAs we have acquired. And then Gordon was the cherry on top for me. This upcoming season on paper is probably our best shot at an NBA Championship in our 55 year history!

Can't ask for a better setup, no?

Split T wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 11:19 am

I will say Ayton’s deal is looking less problematic after the deals given out this weekend. Poeltl and López both got 20 million+

I don't get this take.

Milwaukee won a championship with Brook Lopez playing a very important role. Runner-up DPOY. The $24 mil a year salary is steep, but it's a 2-year deal. Plus, he is a 2-way big that hits 3s. Those don't grow on trees.

Poeltl got $20 mil a year. He didn't average 30 minutes per game and put up 12.5 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 2.7 apg, 1.2 bpg, and shot 62 FG%. Jarrett Allen got $20 mil a year a couple of years ago. So I don't see what's the big deal.

Neither of these situations makes me want the part-timer on a max deal. Not even remotely.

BKinSJC wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 1:30 pm

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 12:27 pm

Everyone said we couldn’t fill out the roster without getting rid of Ayton. I told you all we would be fine.

We really don't know yet that the team is "fine". Like a lot of people on this message board, I'm intrigued with the possibilities of some of these potential 5th-9th guys that the front office picked up. But it's far from a guarantee that any of them will actually be playable in a playoff series, when it matters.

Exactly.

Plus, everything is relative. I love the moves the Suns have made given what resources were at their disposal. That doesn't mean I prefer them to having the MLE/BAE, and/or trading Ayton for 2-3 good players.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 3:49 pm

IF Ayton buys in to Vogel and understands what a great situation he is in, he could have a career year.

As opposed to the terrible situation he has been forced to play in these last few years?

I get him and Monty did not have a good relationship, but it wasn't like it started that way from day one. When this team/organization turned the corner in the Bubble, it was Ayton who decided to play like garbage. Before that, it was his suspension. So those two things probably led to the relationship going sideways (along with Monty's devotion to the "Point god" )

We've been told that Ayton needs touches to play hard. So how is playing with three elite scorers who each demand/deserve 20+ shots per game a great situation for him?

virtual9mm wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:55 am

One serious question. Would you rather pay Ayton what he is making or Sabonis 43.4mm per year for the next 5 years?

I love these fake either/or scenarios. How about neither?

And what you have to remember is context. Sacramento has been able to accomplish anything since the early 2000s. They are overreacting to their first good season in a long time.

There will always be other teams that make bad decisions. It isn't good business to justify your bad decisions by point to others'.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:30 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 11:19 am

I will say Ayton’s deal is looking less problematic after the deals given out this weekend. Poeltl and López both got 20 million+

I don't get this take.

Milwaukee won a championship with Brook Lopez playing a very important role. Runner-up DPOY. The $24 mil a year salary is steep, but it's a 2-year deal. Plus, he is a 2-way big that hits 3s. Those don't grow on trees.

Poeltl got $20 mil a year. He didn't average 30 minutes per game and put up 12.5 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 2.7 apg, 1.2 bpg, and shot 62 FG%. Jarrett Allen got $20 mil a year a couple of years ago. So I don't see what's the big deal.

Neither of these situations makes me want the part-timer on a max deal. Not even remotely.

Well I still don’t want him on a max deal, but Lopez and Poeltl getting overpaid makes it more palatable to me.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:44 am

virtual9mm wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:55 am

One serious question. Would you rather pay Ayton what he is making or Sabonis 43.4mm per year for the next 5 years?

I love these fake either/or scenarios. How about neither?

And what you have to remember is context. Sacramento has been able to accomplish anything since the early 2000s. They are overreacting to their first good season in a long time.

There will always be other teams that make bad decisions. It isn't good business to justify your bad decisions by point to others'.

If it wasn't obvious, it was a rhetorical question. The kind of contract Ayton is getting is the new normal. Of course, there's going to be a lot of buyer's regret. But it's clear that Ayton's deal isn't some kind of outlier.

Folks were saying stuff like trade him for Poetl. But a Poetl at what he's getting? I know hindsight is 20-20 but most of the folks who were advocating for such a trade also wanted to sell Ayton off for "depth" (spare parts). Now, the Suns still have Ayton and have depth just as good as a trade might have netted.

I think Jeremy deserves some credit here despite his hyperbolic tendencies. Of course, nobody will give it to him. But in the end, I suspect that you'll see a much better Ayton, it doesn't matter if it was his fault or Monty's, a change will do him some good.

Fadeawayton isn't changing his game. Baby hooks and fades, iffy motor. Some games he'll be good enough on defense, some games he'll sleepwalk and get outplayed. If he's not getting enough shots, he'll disengage and we'll pretend it's not an issue because "he's still better than the alternatives". It is what it is.

virtual9mm wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 8:57 am

If it wasn't obvious, it was a rhetorical question. The kind of contract Ayton is getting is the new normal. Of course, there's going to be a lot of buyer's regret. But it's clear that Ayton's deal isn't some kind of outlier.

I don't think that is accurate at all. People didn't think Ayton's contract was an outlier; they just didn't think he was/is worth a max contract. I don't think Sabonis extension, Lopez's deal, or Poeltl's changes that. If the take is that "well those guys got overpaid so it's ok that we overpaid Ayton"; I can't subscribe to that. Guys getting overpaid isn't new, and again, just because one team does it, doesn't mean another should.

You can point to those examples, but someone can just as easily point to the bargains Naz Reid and Thomas Bryant were signed to.

virtual9mm wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 8:57 am

Now, the Suns still have Ayton and have depth just as good as a trade might have netted.

Again, this isn't accurate. No one was hoping for guys like Keita Bates-Diop, Drew Eubanks, and Yuta Watanabe as a trade return for Ayton. Not even close. Those are great for the minimum. Unfortunately, if they're good, we won't have a chance to retain them because we don't have their bird rights. Guys that we bring in via trade, we would have their bird rights.

virtual9mm wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 8:57 am

I think Jeremy deserves some credit here despite his hyperbolic tendencies.

LOL, for what?! Did I miss the 2023-24 season? Is it already over? Ayton won DPOY? He averaged 20/10?!

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:53 am

virtual9mm wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 8:57 am

If it wasn't obvious, it was a rhetorical question. The kind of contract Ayton is getting is the new normal. Of course, there's going to be a lot of buyer's regret. But it's clear that Ayton's deal isn't some kind of outlier.

I don't think that is accurate at all. People didn't think Ayton's contract was an outlier; they just didn't think he was/is worth a max contract. I don't think Sabonis extension, Lopez's deal, or Poeltl's changes that. If the take is that "well those guys got overpaid so it's ok that we overpaid Ayton"; I can't subscribe to that. Guys getting overpaid isn't new, and again, just because one team does it, doesn't mean another should.

You can point to those examples, but someone can just as easily point to the bargains Naz Reid and Thomas Bryant were signed to.

virtual9mm wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 8:57 am

Now, the Suns still have Ayton and have depth just as good as a trade might have netted.

Again, this isn't accurate. No one was hoping for guys like Keita Bates-Diop, Drew Eubanks, and Yuta Watanabe as a trade return for Ayton. Not even close. Those are great for the minimum. Unfortunately, if they're good, we won't have a chance to retain them because we don't have their bird rights. Guys that we bring in via trade, we would have their bird rights.

virtual9mm wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 8:57 am

I think Jeremy deserves some credit here despite his hyperbolic tendencies.

LOL, for what?! Did I miss the 2023-24 season? Is it already over? Ayton won DPOY? He averaged 20/10?!

Lots of folks were advocating for trading Ayton for the kinds of players we ended up signing for the minimum, less so recently (thankfully) but more so earlier. Jeremy was one of the few voices against this, although I would bet that a silent majority concurred. Credit where credit is due although I also think Jeremy sometimes says bat shit crazy stuff. And he's been demonized here.

Regarding bad contracts -- yes, they are bad and Ayton's isn't great. Based on the sheer number of crazy deals being signed, you can't simply discount the possibility that this will be the new normal and that Ayton's deal might look fairly reasonable once the new CBA kicks in. It raises questions about whether we should be spending so much money on sports while leaving kindergarten teachers grossly underpaid but this is beyond the scope of this board.

Don't be so sure about yourself. A lot of ways all this can go, although you have had a great track record here. I am willing to bet that Ayton will either improve under a new coach or net a much better trade return than folks are CURRENTLY expecting. I don't really care if Ayton was the problem or Monty was, probably both TBH. All I care about is his future performance or trade return.

My thing is it shows the league still values non superstar centers. The market was still there for role playing bigs to get 20 million plus a year. Ayton is at 30 million plus and I’m not saying I’m ok with that now…but it makes me feel better that we can actually find a trade for him because someone will still value Ayton at that price.

I still think it was a bad deal and I want to move him. I just feel better about our chances now that I’m seeing what type of contracts role playing bigs are getting. He went from way overpaid to just overpaid in my mind.

I don't think Poeltl is overpaid. He's got some flaws but he's very good.

20 million a year for a role player feels like a lot. He’s your 4th or 5th best player. If you assume you’re paying 3-4 guys more money than him, you’re hitting the salary cap with your starting lineup. I guess it just depends on what your other options to add salary are. It’s not a big overpay to me…But outside of maybe Houston, I don’t think there was anything over the MLE. He feels like a 15-18m kinda guy.

I forgot about Vucevic too, he also got 20 million.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:41 am

Superbone wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 02, 2023 3:49 pm

IF Ayton buys in to Vogel and understands what a great situation he is in, he could have a career year.

As opposed to the terrible situation he has been forced to play in these last few years?

I get him and Monty did not have a good relationship, but it wasn't like it started that way from day one. When this team/organization turned the corner in the Bubble, it was Ayton who decided to play like garbage. Before that, it was his suspension. So those two things probably led to the relationship going sideways (along with Monty's devotion to the "Point god" )

We've been told that Ayton needs touches to play hard. So how is playing with three elite scorers who each demand/deserve 20+ shots per game a great situation for him?

Those three players averaged 56 shots per game last season. And there’s 90 shots available per game. So what’s the problem?

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 7:19 am

[*]We don't have a real PG, which may diminish the effectiveness of several players, including Ayton.

Decided to bring this over from the Gordon thread…

Some of Ayton’s best work has been with Cam Payne as the point guard, including this last season and in the WCF when CP3 had Covid.

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 03, 2023 10:52 am

My thing is it shows the league still values non superstar centers. The market was still there for role playing bigs to get 20 million plus a year. Ayton is at 30 million plus and I’m not saying I’m ok with that now…but it makes me feel better that we can actually find a trade for him because someone will still value Ayton at that price.

I still think it was a bad deal and I want to move him. I just feel better about our chances now that I’m seeing what type of contracts role playing bigs are getting. He went from way overpaid to just overpaid in my mind.

Mason Plumlee got 1 year, $5 million.